tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post1527710635575948049..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Eleanor Despenser, Edward II and Queen Isabella (1)Kathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-70226821692909624332021-03-16T14:54:08.172+00:002021-03-16T14:54:08.172+00:00In the same way. That's why the meaning of wha...In the same way. That's why the meaning of what the chronicler said is unclear. It might mean incest, or sex with men, or both of those, or something else entirely.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-72537554383694645522021-03-16T14:22:35.599+00:002021-03-16T14:22:35.599+00:00Thank you. I am curious whether "illicit and...Thank you. I am curious whether "illicit and sinful copulation" noted in the Westminster chronicle would necessarily refer to incest. How would the chronicler have referred to other sexual relationships that the church would dislike, such as adultery or same sex relations? <br /><br />EstherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-42688368973361263432021-03-15T15:37:17.779+00:002021-03-15T15:37:17.779+00:00The Westminster chronicler wrote in his account of...The Westminster chronicler wrote in his account of events in 1324 that Edward II loved 'illicit and sinful copulation', which I should have added to the post, come to think of it. A lot of the chronicles of the era were written in the north of England and they might simply not have heard any rumours, assuming there were rumours and assuming something did happen between Edward and Eleanor. Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-88943189987418720642021-03-15T14:39:42.510+00:002021-03-15T14:39:42.510+00:00Great post. However, I am wondering if there is a...Great post. However, I am wondering if there is any specific reason why more explicit accusations were not made at the time? In the mid 1480's, for example, there were explicit statements in one of the contemporary chronicles that Richard III wanted to marry his niece. Was there a change during the years between Edward and Richard in what chroniclers would write? Greater fear of Edward II (or Hugh Despenser) than of Richard and his supporters?<br /><br />Esther Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-47506550078813115362021-03-15T05:21:03.743+00:002021-03-15T05:21:03.743+00:00It certainly looks the two were more than close an...It certainly looks the two were more than close and that the feelings went both ways. And this relationship was not a short one either.<br /> <br />I wonder did Isabella find out or was she aware of all this? I assume she was but did not think it was serious before the whole thing came to the breaking point. I think she put two and two together before leaving to France and realized that not only Hugh was manipulating her husband but his wife was also in there. That would have been crushing.<br /><br />And what about Hugh? Did he not know about this affair? I bet he did. And pimping his own wife would not have been out of his gangster ways. Besides: if there really was a secret love affair going on and he knew about, he certainly would have used it as a leverage. No doubt about it. And this would also explain many weird things about Edward and Hugh and what went on between those two. <br /><br />If there was one big fault in Edward it was his love life. He just could not figure out whom to love, whom to live with, and just went where ever his heart pointed at. Men, women, noble ones, lower born, when he got the crush on someone he just went for it and eventually crashed one way of the other. I am pretty sure this kind of behavior was not making any friends around the nobility and the church.sami parkkonennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-76050329694907106932021-03-14T18:17:02.415+00:002021-03-14T18:17:02.415+00:00:-D :-D One of these days, we'll find it. :):-D :-D One of these days, we'll find it. :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-27192877261543091312021-03-14T18:15:08.726+00:002021-03-14T18:15:08.726+00:00The speculation about clothes being handmade and k...The speculation about clothes being handmade and knowledge of someone's body shape and size comes about from other folk knowing my slight obsession with Edward and companions sometimes ask in jest....have you got his inside leg measurement yet.😁😁 To which the answer is....no but I'm working on it.!!Karen Hillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-4375835680622592652021-03-14T16:46:27.130+00:002021-03-14T16:46:27.130+00:00Karen, I also can't help feeling that Edward m...Karen, I also can't help feeling that Edward might have thought the child born in December 1325 - presumably Elizabeth, Lady Berkeley - might have been his. I wonder if it means anything that Queen Isabella left England on 9 March 1325, about the time Eleanor must have become pregnant. When I can find Eleanor's whereabouts in the 1320s, she was almost always at court, and she was certainly with Edward on 25 March 1325, having spent Christmas 1324 with him and Hugh, and having been at court on every occasion in 1324 when I can place her. And yes, I think Edward was definitely more sexually fluid than many people think. Oh, and thank you for making the great point about having the clothes hand made and knowing his measurements - I hadn't considered that!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-1262813000892731402021-03-14T16:28:08.999+00:002021-03-14T16:28:08.999+00:00Piecing together these, what seem like generous gi...Piecing together these, what seem like generous gifts,and the odd visitations of Edward to Eleanor do make you raise an eyebrow of suspicion and curiosity of what exactly was the nature of their relationship. The clothing gifts is definitely a something that makes you ask...why? - This is the King, he probably has more clothes than anyone, they would have all been carefully handmade just for him. A clothing gift,as you say, is something more intimate between a husband and wife, someone who would know your body having these things made by hand especially back then.<br />Do we think that Hugh allowed access to his wife and this was his form of blackmail over the King. I think I've mentioned before about a little nagging doubt that maybe the last child had less to do with Hugh and more to do with Edward.<br />Does the working back from DOB to their whereabouts around 9mths before give any clues?<br />It does put rather a dampener on the idea that Edward was drawn only to men and didn't really have an eye for the ladies of the court.Karen Hillnoreply@blogger.com