Comments on Edward II: Highlights of the 1318 Household Ordinance

Thanks, Swiftgold! Glad you're enjoying the blog,...

2008-08-27T14:50:00.000+02:00

Thanks, Swiftgold! Glad you're enjoying the blog, and to hear that it's helpful for your writing. I'm planning another post on the Ordinance soon, maybe two more (for some odd reason, I'm really in the mood for translating medieval French at the moment, so might as well put it to good use! ;)

It's always great to meet people interested in Ed II - hope to hear from you again soon!

This is wonderful information! Searching on this s...

2008-08-27T05:22:00.000+02:00

This is wonderful information! Searching on this sort of organization thing was how I came to this blog in the first place, months ago, but I've always been rather fascinated by Edward II so I just kept reading and reading. Anyway, thank you for the translation! Though I'm working on a fantasy story I really want it to have a anchor in reality, especially when it comes to stuff like this, and it's hard to find this sort of detail anywhere...

Fascinating details about the workings of a great ...

2008-08-19T13:37:00.000+02:00

Fascinating details about the workings of a great household. I wonder if they would think it decidedly odd that people 700 years later would be poring over household accounts that no doubt seemed mundane at the time!

For what it's worth, I'd read "according to estate" as reflecting the social class of the minstrels and/or their masters.

Gabriele - your Roderic and Duke Conrad would likely find it strange to be suddenly without a large retinue and would have had to adapt, even if it had its plus points (like not being followed everywhere and not being responsible for scores of people)

Gabriele: LOL, yeah, all those people must be a lo...

2008-08-18T14:50:00.000+02:00

Gabriele: LOL, yeah, all those people must be a logistical nightmare in a novel, as well as in reality. ;)

Thanks, Lady D! Privacy must have been non-existent at court...;)

I haven't heard that about striped cloth - let me know if you find the ref!

Fascinating post! I love all those details - but O...

2008-08-17T17:00:00.000+02:00

Fascinating post! I love all those details - but OMG, what a complicated logistics nightmare. You really couldn't feel lonely at court, could you?

"And they will make their purchases in proper manner, to the great profit of the king and at minimal grievance to the people..." That quote made me smile. No doubt the king profited quite well thanks to his purveyors and the grievances of the people were often not minimal at all!

The bit about the butler being responsible for the wine so that it reflected well on the king made me smile too as I remember something in the close (or was it patent) rolls about the merchants of Portsmouth complaining that they had been forced to buy bad wine from Hugh and the king when they had stayed in the castle there!

By the way... striped cloth - I'm sure I read somewhere (and can't remember where) that striped cloth was considered of the devil! I wonder if anyone else has read this?

I wonder what 'warned in a courteous manner' sound...

2008-08-17T16:23:00.000+02:00

I wonder what 'warned in a courteous manner' sounded like.

That's an interesting post. I tend to forget that noble lords had great households, because those people tend to get in the way. :) But I should make it more clear that when Roderic is in exile, he's bereft of him men at arms, valets, clerks, personal surgeon (I mention that guy after the fight with Kjartan) and whatever, and that would be even more valid later in the novel for Duke Conrad who must have had a larger retinue.

The payment given depended to a very great extent ...

2008-08-17T10:03:00.000+02:00

The payment given depended to a very great extent on the social status and rank of the musician himself or his master - for example, in 1316 Ed gave £5 to the minstrel of his cousin the prince of Achaea and Taranto, but in 1323 10 shillings (half a pound) each to 4 clerks who 'played interludes' for him. And in 1317, he paid 4 men of low birth in striped cloth rather than in money "for singing before the king in his chamber at Westminster." (20 ells of cloth between the 4 of them.) Giving striped cloth rather than money to the minstrel of the prince of Achaea (who was also titular emperor of Constantinople) would have been very odd. As I wrote in my post on Ed's generosity recently, the amount of money he gave to people depended almost entirely on their birth, rank and wealth - though there were always exceptions, of course, and Ed could be ludicrously generous to people who especially pleased him, handing over 20 years' income or thereabouts to them for some favour. Can't think of any examples offhand, but quite possibly there were occasions when Ed gave a very generous amount to a musician because of his talent, not because of his social status.

Christy: that's definitely the first time anyone's mentioned Britney on my blog! You'll probably increase my hit rate enormously. :-)

I noticed the minstrel item in particular, too. We...

2008-08-17T05:39:00.000+02:00

I noticed the minstrel item in particular, too. We humanities-lovers would see that paragraph in boldface. You historians will have a better take on minstrels' social standing, but I saw it as an indication of skill or popularity.

As a church pianist and organist, I'm considered talented by my employers and congregants. But could I "make it" commercially? No way! (It's just mad-money.) I'm talented and have years of education and experience, but I don't have that show quality of a soloist or entertainer. And there are "musicians" of miniscule musical talent who have the total package and worldwide fame--also the $$$$, such as Britney Spears. (Sorry for bringing down the tone of your blog with THAT anachronistic insert!)

Perhaps these minstrel employees were the "regulars" who were skilled but didn't get the glory of a Welsh or Aquitanian bard on tour. They were probably the wallpaper instead of the centerpiece, and gave music lessons to courtiers to supplement their income. Even today, it's the only way to make a living as a musician.

So, to impose 21st-century culture on our ancestors, a musician of my "estate" might get the pence and the shoe allowance, but the "eSpearance de Brittany" bimbo would get the fortune from the grateful king! After all, people don't change. You see the same behaviors in Bible and mythological characters as you do in Shakespeare and in people today.

Hm. That's an interesting little insight into the ...

2008-08-17T00:46:00.000+02:00

Hm. That's an interesting little insight into the lives of the musicians - perhaps not an unequivocal position...

"And they will eat in chamber or in the hall, as they are commanded." - that, I suppose, is dependent on whether/where they're performing, but:

"And they will take for their wages and their robes according to their estate" - does this mean "according to the usual estate of a minstrel", I wonder, or is it an implicit acknowledgement that not all minstrels have exactly the same social standing - that some of them might be, if not noble, at least deserving by their birth some recognition slightly above servant standard - because musical talent does not confine itself to one class?

I suppose it's more likely to be the first, but the precision of the details elsewhere makes this look like it's deliberately not specifying one single situation in this case.