tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post3563267635788575888..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Book Review: Isabella and the Strange Death of Edward IIKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-657806602750343442014-07-29T06:01:02.700+01:002014-07-29T06:01:02.700+01:00Thanks so much, Chris! Your thesis sounds great! ...Thanks so much, Chris! Your thesis sounds great! Not being sarcastic,I promise :) :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48215516745053511462014-07-29T03:58:04.124+01:002014-07-29T03:58:04.124+01:00OK, remind me to never pull out my masters thesis ...OK, remind me to never pull out my masters thesis on the synthesis of ferrocene derivatives, their molecular orbitals and applications and send it to you for review...fortunately, that was 30 years some ago and I think my Mom and I are the only owners of the published copies...<br /><br />Seriously, Kathyrn, I am again very impressed with your methodical and scientific approach to a fascinating subject. It amazes me people (read:"scholars") feel the need to interject when the actual subjects themselves, when viewed in the proper historical context, are pretty darn interesting by themselves WITHOUT the suppositions of authors removed some 700 years later...<br /><br />Great read and well done.Chris Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-11386847225850591342013-06-29T18:12:53.851+01:002013-06-29T18:12:53.851+01:00Oh, dear. This sounds like the sort of book that ...Oh, dear. This sounds like the sort of book that has made me very cautious about 'narrative non-fiction'. Thanks for the warning!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-59857522271219829622013-06-27T08:58:46.283+01:002013-06-27T08:58:46.283+01:00Hi Kathryn,
A very interesting post, as it illust...Hi Kathryn,<br /><br />A very interesting post, as it illustrates how even professional historians can get things wrong. It leaves amateurs like me wondering just what you can trust in popular histories.<br /><br />I purchased the paperback version in 2004 at Manchester Airport before flying to Budapest. I didn't read much of it on the flight, but finished it off a few days later while recovering from a gigantic hangover in a little Slovak town called Sahy. They had just joined the EC the previous day, and as an "honoured" UK guest I was treated to numerous free drinks by my extremely generous hosts. <br /><br />So that's my excuse, but the book was certainly interesting enough to offset the headache, and at the time I wondered just how much speculation had gone into it. I was aware of the Fieschi letter, but wondered if the whole episode wasn't a case of Manuele Fieschi trying to curry favour with Edward III for some reason. <br /><br />More recently Ian Mortimer's book "Greatest Traitor" covered much of the same ground, and I felt it was much more authoritative in tone. I would recommend it to anyone trying to get to grips with the eventual fate of Edward II, but then I am only an interested amateur. <br /><br />I think there are two lessons from this: -<br /><br />1. Paul Doherty's book is a good cure for a hangover.<br />2. If you ever go to Slovakia, beware of a local brand of firewater called Palenka - its ferocious!<br /><br />Kind regards<br /><br />Jerry BennettJerry Bennettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-86057922910222747112013-06-26T17:40:32.651+01:002013-06-26T17:40:32.651+01:00Thank you, Kasia! :)Thank you, Kasia! :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-91298176003321474082013-06-26T16:13:08.016+01:002013-06-26T16:13:08.016+01:00Fascinating read, Kathryn! I especially enjoyed th...Fascinating read, Kathryn! I especially enjoyed the "Isabella was a fairy-tale princess" part and how you "mercilessly" corrected all the mistakes. Your knowledge is impressive :-) <br />Katarzyna Ogrodnik-Fujcikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10415905019122111675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-731315571532389782013-06-25T08:02:40.535+01:002013-06-25T08:02:40.535+01:00"Sorry, but I almost fell off my chair readin..."Sorry, but I almost fell off my chair reading that one!" Me too, Sami! And the bit in his last novel featuring Isabella, <i>Darkening Glass</i>, where at just turned sixteen she's said to have 'matured to full ripeness', really makes me uncomfortable. The descriptions of her beauty and 'sexiness' in that one are so ridiculously over the top.<br /><br />Beata, nope, it's definitely meant to be non-fiction. :/ Alison Weir in her 'biography' of Isabella does the same thing, claims that Mortimer was 'tall, dark and swarthy'. Ummmm, no. In non-fiction you simply can't do this, state people's physical appearance as though it's fact when it isn't, it's just the way Weir <i>thinks</i> Mortimer looked. There is no evidence whatsoever for people's hair colour in this era, except Edward II, who in various manuscript illustrations is shown with fair hair. Isabella may well have been blonde, but we don't and can't know that.<br /><br />Much of the English nobility is recorded as having visited Isabella in the last few months of her life - she had three, four, five visitors every day, so I don't tend to read too much into Agnes and Roger the younger going as well. Isabella was the dowager queen, after all. We have no idea if there was any contact between her and the Mortimers before 1357 as her accounts don't survive.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-56641777034063442852013-06-24T00:38:15.542+01:002013-06-24T00:38:15.542+01:00I agree with your comments on this book. I actuall...I agree with your comments on this book. I actually was quite shocked as finding so many errors and checked to see if it was actually a work of fiction, but alas, no. I can only assume that Paul Doherty dashed the book off in a rush and didn't check facts & dates nor edit in any way. And neither did anyone else.<br /><br />I always imagine Isabella as blonde for some reason & Roger Mortimer as dark. A blonde Roger just doesn't feel right. I always also see Hugh Despenser as being blonde or at least fair while Piers is dark! <br /><br />In the Vow of the Peacock Isabella, age 12, is described as being "already complete". "Not a child but a woman in miniature".<br /><br />However, what has really fascinated me regarding Isabella's last year is the visits to her of Roger Mortimer's daughter & grandson, Agnes, Countess of Pembroke, and Roger M, 2nd Earl of March in 1357. Joan was already dead by then, of course, but I wonder why they visited, the Earl apparently more than once. I wonder why they visited, did they just want to go reminisce about Roger's glory days. Had Roger left some sort of momento for Isabella and did his family feel they had to wait until Joan was dead before they could deal with it? Had there be other contacts between various Mortimers and Isabella before 1357. Does anyone know or have a theory? <br /><br />Looking forward to the next blog.Beatanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-75674485953538908262013-06-24T00:12:54.169+01:002013-06-24T00:12:54.169+01:00"A Body even a friar would lust after".
..."A Body even a friar would lust after".<br /><br />Now if there ever was a kinky gothic pervert adult entertainment subject, that is. Sorry, but I almost fell off my chair reading that one!<br /><br />Perhaps the old chap has gone soft and does not care anymore? Maybe he thoughed: "To hell with it, everybody is doing it and selling well, I might as well jump into the band wagon!"<br /><br />Or perhaps he is in love with, hemm, teenager queen?<br /><br />Aww, that is not comfortable idea at all.Sami Parkkonennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-58783863568434896342013-06-23T20:02:45.148+01:002013-06-23T20:02:45.148+01:00Remind me to mention that Arminius was tall, blond...Remind me to mention that Arminius was tall, blond, blue-eyed and very handsome in my essay about him. *grin*<br /><br />He may indeed have been strong if Tacitus' account of Arminius physical prowess at the battle of Idistaviso is reliable, and the German tribes may not have followed a skinny little whimp in the first place, but the rest is not proven at all. Maybe he had blue eyes indeed since the Roman sources tend to notice Arminius' eyes and the unusual blue colour would be an argument for that, but again, no proof. <br /><br />But in my novel he is tall, handsome and fairhaired. Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-57750172146557726882013-06-23T19:40:09.243+01:002013-06-23T19:40:09.243+01:00I remember a bit in his Darkening Glass novel wher...I remember a bit in his Darkening Glass novel where the narrator comments that Isabella at the beginning of 1312, just turned sixteen by Doherty's own account, has 'matured to full ripeness'. Talking about the 'ripeness' of a girl of that age, even though the words are put in the mouth of a female narrator, genuinely made me squirm with discomfort. Then there's all, ALL, the description of her beauty, which gets tedious, and the bit about Isabella's "beautiful body" in her coffin (she was in her sixties when she died!) and in his Cup of Ghosts the fact that she had "a body even a friar would lust after." Bleugh :(Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82929524917948756432013-06-23T19:36:20.785+01:002013-06-23T19:36:20.785+01:00oh, and there's no excuse for a 'top schol...oh, and there's no excuse for a 'top scholar' like Doherty to get names and dates wrong. But then neither should he be using phrases like 'fairytale princess'.Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23178758026576033602013-06-23T19:33:56.790+01:002013-06-23T19:33:56.790+01:00Great post on a very, erm, strange book:> I ac...Great post on a very, erm, strange book:> I actually bought it when I was in the United States and started it on the plane back home - and was shaking my head as soon as I started it. You are right - the opening sums it all up! Doherty seems to have some sort of crush on Isabella - and it gets ridiculous in his fiction as well, in which EVERYONE is in love with her. Well, except Edward, who clearly must be in the wrong. LOL at the idea of Piers and Edward texting! Poor Isabella, having to 'rough it' in Dover castle!Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-90033107493018897162013-06-23T19:10:50.478+01:002013-06-23T19:10:50.478+01:00Heeee ;-) :)Heeee ;-) :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-86121085337932166812013-06-23T19:10:10.644+01:002013-06-23T19:10:10.644+01:00The title sounds like a mystery novel, too. The se...The title sounds like a mystery novel, too. The sequel will be 'Isabella and the Missing Wedding Gifts'. :-)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-37216947466402122242013-06-23T17:08:21.757+01:002013-06-23T17:08:21.757+01:00Me too, Undine. Maybe he just thought he'd ma...Me too, Undine. Maybe he just thought he'd make more money and be more famous writing this kind of stuff than writing properly-researched, academic material. Sigh; I find it really sad. His novel Death of a King bugs me too - OK, it's a novel, but it's a 'factual' one where a clerk investigates Edward II's supposed death, and in that one Doherty changes Edward III's date of birth by eight months in order to make Roger Mortimer his real father, and doesn't acknowledge this in an author's note. Agh! And all this nonsense on the first page about Isabella's 'beautiful blonde hair' and 'arabic [sic] features' - yes, I agree it shows contempt for readers, to plain make this stuff up and pass it off to them as 'fact'.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-33007819170378775402013-06-23T17:03:04.984+01:002013-06-23T17:03:04.984+01:00I'm genuinely puzzled how Doherty could write ...I'm genuinely puzzled how Doherty could write a fine doctoral thesis on the subject, and still go so off the rails in his books.<br /><br />Do you suppose he just has so much contempt for the readers of "popular history" or "historical fiction" that he figures accuracy just doesn't matter when writing for such audiences?<br /><br />I grant you, considering how many books Alison Weir and Philippa Gregory sell, I could see where he'd come to that conclusion, but still...Undinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16214242522330278662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-84237484651877313832013-06-23T16:16:17.770+01:002013-06-23T16:16:17.770+01:00Totally agree, Sami!Totally agree, Sami!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-64988173714605514542013-06-23T16:01:58.526+01:002013-06-23T16:01:58.526+01:00I mean, why not write a fiction? If the reality an...I mean, why not write a fiction? If the reality and history do not feel ok, write a fiction. Say it out loud: this is what I think should have happened but did not in real world. <br /><br />If and when I write historical fiction, I damn well make it clear to any reader that THIS IS FICTION, not even faction (mix of fact and fiction). I may use real names, places etc. and try to make them as correct as possible but it is still a FICTION. But when you write history, hemmmmmmm... Lets just say that it is good to check the facts when you write about facts.Sami Parkkonennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-71484642510119036632013-06-23T15:38:42.355+01:002013-06-23T15:38:42.355+01:00Agh, perish the thought! :/Agh, perish the thought! :/Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-86961982727912121242013-06-23T15:38:06.434+01:002013-06-23T15:38:06.434+01:00Quack quack oops, indeed. Now we only need an TV d...Quack quack oops, indeed. Now we only need an TV documentary on top of it. *rolleyes*Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-73447785256197021802013-06-23T13:44:18.119+01:002013-06-23T13:44:18.119+01:00Heh, great idea, Esther! I wonder!Heh, great idea, Esther! I wonder!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-6895145173397178622013-06-23T13:41:54.223+01:002013-06-23T13:41:54.223+01:00I don't mind historical fiction with detailed ...I don't mind historical fiction with detailed footnotes; I do mind when it is passed off as serious history. I wonder if Doherty allowed Phillippa Gregory to publish her book under his name ... his name would yield more respect in scholarly circles.<br /><br />EstherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-41234401054099476562013-06-23T13:23:47.647+01:002013-06-23T13:23:47.647+01:00Indeed, Clement! Also a warning to readers that e...Indeed, Clement! Also a warning to readers that even a book purporting to be non-fiction can't always be taken as accurate.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-54696367659531211262013-06-23T13:21:34.449+01:002013-06-23T13:21:34.449+01:00A lesson to anyone - even so-called 'historian...A lesson to anyone - even so-called 'historians', to research a subject thoroughly.<br />Clement Glenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14116966238223089211noreply@blogger.com