tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5436002077930656780..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Did Hugh Despenser the Younger Rape Isabella of France?Kathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-34711535332468409082015-05-10T01:28:11.565+01:002015-05-10T01:28:11.565+01:00Just a little word about your translations: they a...Just a little word about your translations: they are word for word, thus not reflecting the exact meaning of the sentences. I am French and have studied medieval French. For instance: 'a son poiar' would be meaning 'at will' or 'as he sees fit' rather than 'at his power'. There are a few others like this. In another sentence, she actually says clearly that it is her life that is at risk, twice. 'meschief' means 'peril' here, reading 'we cannot return to the company of our said Lord without putting ourselves at risk of death, of which we are in greater peril than we can tell...'. In French, the context can completely change the meaning of words.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07012742259448891055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-62162850849782837462012-09-08T05:24:27.016+01:002012-09-08T05:24:27.016+01:00Bryan, many thanks for that terrific insightful co...Bryan, many thanks for that terrific insightful comment! Much appreciated.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-92034515699717781462012-09-07T21:49:06.794+01:002012-09-07T21:49:06.794+01:00While nothing is "beyond the bounds of possib...While nothing is "beyond the bounds of possibility" the bounds of probability often bring us to more prosaic conclusions. The latter are usually the right ones as you post amply illustrates. Weir and Doherty have books to sell but as neither of them are going to have any lasting influence I don't get too exercised about it. Seymour Phillips will be referenced in 30 years time; nobody, I suggest, will look to Alison Weir for insight.Weir is a fluent and entertaining writer and she does her research but she rarely has any insight into character. After I read her account of Ketherine Swynford, for example, I was left with the picture of a Surrey housewife who had brought up her bright children to get good A levels and a first at Cambridge.<br />There is little doubt that Hugh Despenser was very ambitious, but he was not a fool either and raping the queen would ensure a swift passage to his downfall. Someone would find out and use it to his advantage. The source of Isabella's resentment against Despenser was most likely his growing power and her loss of influence. She was born to power and no one who has enjoyed power likes to lose it. (Which, on another topic, is why the tale of Ed II living out the rest of his life quietly as a hermit is equally implausible,) Unfortunately, people who have never themselves experienced the highly competitive and unforgiving struggle for power tend to describe it in terms they think they understand.<br />Bryan Dunleavyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13550652628913169630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-67444144749654728812012-04-25T06:21:09.050+01:002012-04-25T06:21:09.050+01:00Yuck :-( :-(Yuck :-( :-(Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-31650908553110780282012-04-25T05:36:32.875+01:002012-04-25T05:36:32.875+01:00Weir does that so often. She seems to have a thing...Weir does that so often. She seems to have a thing with propounding all kinds of sex-based theories for historical characters. Ah well, whatever floats her boat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-42140587448520585252012-04-18T04:35:41.690+01:002012-04-18T04:35:41.690+01:00Thanks, Kathryn.Thanks, Kathryn.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-15700819269473172212012-04-17T23:30:21.253+01:002012-04-17T23:30:21.253+01:00Totally agree.Totally agree.Kathryn Pritchard Gibsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05915049203298223276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-90386158732352710392012-04-17T07:20:37.412+01:002012-04-17T07:20:37.412+01:00Great point, Cherith! It often seems to me that c...Great point, Cherith! It often seems to me that commentators are imposing archetypal narratives on Edward II's story.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23494996436987377602012-04-17T07:17:58.598+01:002012-04-17T07:17:58.598+01:00It seems like people are getting their English sca...It seems like people are getting their English scandal history confused--the idea of Isabella being turned over to Despenser so that he could rape her reminds me of the case of the Earl of Castlehaven. The elements are similar: the patriarch finds "favorites" who, presumably, return the favor sexually, the wife gets raped by one of these favorites at the behest of the patriarch, the young son gets used as pawn for a power play, etc.. Maybe these "historians" are getting their homosexual stories confused?Cherithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-54838774314008127072012-04-17T06:18:53.747+01:002012-04-17T06:18:53.747+01:00Thanks so much for the great comment, Ian!Thanks so much for the great comment, Ian!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-977959825412376022012-04-16T20:34:02.853+01:002012-04-16T20:34:02.853+01:00Great stuff, Kathryn. I echo your point about rhet...Great stuff, Kathryn. I echo your point about rhetorical questions being a flimsy and weak form of argument. And damned irritating too. <br /><br />People need to consider how the writers of the time had access to first-hand info. Did they check their sources? Just for the sake of argument, imagine Hugh Despenser was a rapist: he is unlikely to have gone to any chroniclers and given them a blow-by-blow account. Isabella's status was even more at risk, so her loyal staff would not have been a source for any impropriety. Even if it did happen, it would not have been reported publicly - and probably not even put in a letter, in case the letter fell into the wrong hands. Most often, delicate information was conveyed by the instruction in a letter to trust what the bearer had to say. <br /><br />When such stories arise in continental sources, often we can link them to propaganda (e.g. Edward III's supposed rape of the 'countess of Salisbury'). But in this case, it is, as you say, more revealing of modern obsessions with sex and ways to paint a villain as timelessly nasty than any actual information stream arising from an event.Ian Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-81320247352549510142012-04-16T13:58:04.845+01:002012-04-16T13:58:04.845+01:00I'm actually quite angry with writers who make...I'm actually quite angry with writers who make up these nasty allegations against people they don't like. I wonder how they'd feel if someone wrote this kind of stuff about their family?<br /><br />And all this jumping on the Tudor bandwagon by writing books and blog posts about people we know practically nothing about, like Mary Boleyn and her sister-in-law Jane, is irritating too.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-26406604939414076762012-04-15T21:10:44.012+01:002012-04-15T21:10:44.012+01:00If such a thing had happened, I'm pretty sure ...If such a thing had happened, I'm pretty sure some chroniclers would have jumped at it. They did so in other cases - justly and unjustly to blackpaint a king, so it's not like Medieaval scribes didn't know the word 'rape'. ;)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-77385773704673860532012-04-15T19:09:10.238+01:002012-04-15T19:09:10.238+01:00I find this accusation ridiculous - there's no...I find this accusation ridiculous - there's not a shred of evidence for it. And why on earth would Edward or Hugh want to do such a thing? There were plenty of ways to 'dishonour' Isabella than resorting to rape. Some novelists say Edward couldn't manage a sexual relationship with Isabella, and then he's raping her in others! Talk about extremes! <br /><br />And as for Weir - I am fed up with 'possibly', 'maybe' etc after her so-called bio of Mary Boleyn! Don't know how she gets away with it!Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-40519817945071248202012-04-15T18:37:06.531+01:002012-04-15T18:37:06.531+01:00Cashelmara has a lot to answer for, sadlyCashelmara has a lot to answer for, sadlyCarlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-12376042694847606172012-04-15T15:41:38.712+01:002012-04-15T15:41:38.712+01:00Thanks, Susan! Me too.Thanks, Susan! Me too.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-76006277859532869312012-04-15T15:18:35.718+01:002012-04-15T15:18:35.718+01:00Great post! That sort of character assassination, ...Great post! That sort of character assassination, based on the flimsiest of evidence, disgusts me.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.com