tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5586916771975554051..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Isabella of France and Piers GavestonKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-31700960549850794552024-02-07T23:59:36.278+00:002024-02-07T23:59:36.278+00:00Can u write a novel on isabella?Can u write a novel on isabella?Joshua Owensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-73476577493346306492024-02-07T23:58:42.683+00:002024-02-07T23:58:42.683+00:00can u write a novel on isabella?can u write a novel on isabella?joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005078926424137510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-57510990137738536412024-02-07T23:58:22.673+00:002024-02-07T23:58:22.673+00:00can u write a novel on isabella?can u write a novel on isabella?joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005078926424137510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-89839508522993105122022-01-08T06:12:46.508+00:002022-01-08T06:12:46.508+00:00Hello! No, he didn't; the story was invented i...Hello! No, he didn't; the story was invented in the 19th century, and unfortunately far too many history writers are prone to repeating tales they read without checking for themselves.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-28017081074819306802022-01-07T16:33:22.235+00:002022-01-07T16:33:22.235+00:00Thank you, this portrays isabella in a far more in...Thank you, this portrays isabella in a far more interesting light. So, Edward did not give her jewels or other wedding gifts to Gaveston? I have heard this in many writings Kweejibohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17811268034937840616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-64683438786811154582014-09-09T13:31:00.651+01:002014-09-09T13:31:00.651+01:00Speaking of "Princesses Behaving Badly"....Speaking of "Princesses Behaving Badly"...I was able to download it on my Kindle as I wondered, both eagerly and nervously, what it would say about the women which are the book's subjects. To my surprise, the author did make some efforts to be accurate and stay pretty objective (but even then still came off as glorifying some of their deeds and behavior even when not necessarily nice) and did acknowledge the problem of forcing modern narratives and viewing historical figures and events with modern feminist eyes, but even then I don't think the author was able to stick to her word as I found this 'accuracy' and 'objectivity' inconsistent and still had elements of sensationalism to it even as she claimed she did her best to clear away the myths and legends surrounding her subjects.<br />I haven't finished the book yet, but I happened to see that it had a 'selected bibliography' at the end and so I skipped over to it, where to my surprise (or maybe not), she only used *one* source when writing about Isabella (in comparison to some others for which she used more than five or ten) -- and a secondary source at that which I (and you also) believe to be quite unreliable and biased -- "She-Wolves" by Helen Castor! -_- Why, oh, why, did the author have to choose that as a source for her mini-biography on Isabella out of all other sources she could have used?! >_<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-41460029300071416872014-07-12T12:41:27.149+01:002014-07-12T12:41:27.149+01:00Ah, you're in the Philippines, great! Yes, I ...Ah, you're in the Philippines, great! Yes, I can't imagine there's much demand there for a book about Edward II, hehehe :) If you're interested in reading it, I'm sure we can sort something out...<br /><br />I really hope so too, though have often observed that many people simply *want* to believe something, in the face of evidence to the contrary, especially when it's a very popular tale, such as Edward II being feeble or not really being the father of his son *sigh*<br /><br />It drives me mad in books when Isabella is portrayed as a strong, empowered, capable woman when doing something the author approves of, then on the next page is suddenly the helpless victim of unscrupulous men (Roger Mortimer, Henry of Lancaster) when something happens that the author doesn't like. I hate it when women are denied agency in this manner; so patronising and paternalistic, and frankly so hypocritical when the same authors decry the 'sexual prejudices' she's been subjected to (and also make sneeringly unpleasant comments about Edward's sexuality, hmmm). No-one seems to notice or care that both of Edward and Isabella's daughters had unhappy marriages and probably suffered far more than Isabella ever did. Sometimes on the blog, I've referred to The Isabella Exception.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-31651999530098442712014-07-12T11:57:32.058+01:002014-07-12T11:57:32.058+01:00Oh yeah, that was the first thing I saw when I che...Oh yeah, that was the first thing I saw when I checked out your blog yesterday, and it looks really promising! Someday, I'll probably get a copy of it, though not for a long time because the only way I can get such books that are usually not available in bookstores where I live in the Philippines (all the more since it's a biography of an 'obscure' English king that people here probably have very little interest in) is by downloading them for free on the Internet, even if some might consider that illegal :3<br />And I'll definitely be sure not to skip that part in your book since that would be such a slap in the face for certain modern 'historians' and novelists. Crossing my hands that the same people will read your book so that some of them may finally realize how wrong they've been about their beliefs and assumptions about Edward, Isabella, and the rest, but I think I'm rather being too optimistic -- most of them will probably continue to be stubborn about it all and still cling to the delusions and myths they've believed in for so long, but oh well, one can only hope. :)<br />It might shed some light on the other figures being discussed in those books like Empress Matilda, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Margaret of Anjou, Mary I, and Elizabeth I, sure, but I always have low hopes when it comes to discussing Isabella as I pretty much dread how she'll be portrayed, which is often the usual modernized role of tragic, neglected/abused victim who, by some 'twist of fate' or through her own ~power, agency, bravery, and feminist ideals~, transforms into a courageous, righteous modernistic feminist who is a voice in the wilderness speaking out for all the women everywhere in the world who are suffering from marital oppression and whose actions as 'regent' for her son Edward III are of course, perfectly justified, dismissed as some minor thing people really had no cause to complain about, or blamed on her love for Roger Mortimer or her supposedly unstable mental state or some other bizarre thing like that. *rolls eyes*<br />Honestly, the things some people come up with just to make Isabella seem more sympathetic and stand out from other people, especially her fellow women in 13th century France and England, as the only one who dares to become a 'proto-feminist' or who fights for what she believes in! o.O Such blatant disrespect for many other women who were equally tenacious and as much of a fighter (or even more) than Isabella but who are often dismissed or ignored because they're not like picture-perfect, infamous, 'maligned' Queen Isabella.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-7491131856337033322014-07-11T16:21:09.742+01:002014-07-11T16:21:09.742+01:00Ahhhh, that's great, I'm so glad to hear i...Ahhhh, that's great, I'm so glad to hear it! :) I have a biography of him coming out on 28 October, and I'd be delighted if I could change a few more opinions ;) He was a deeply flawed man but a fascinating one, and in my opinion, very likeable. I'm absolutely convinced that Edward and Isabella loved each other, for a long time at least.<br /><br />In the biog, chapter 3, I briefly talk about this popular modern opinion of Isabella (and of other women) that you describe so well. Often when reading accounts of Isabella by her 'fans', I get the weird feeling that she was a time traveller to the 14th century from our own. I'm sure she wouldn't recognise herself in the way she's usually written nowadays.<br /><br />I haven't been able to bring myself to read the Elizabeth Norton book, and not sure I ever will :/ I have read the Isabella chapters of the Castor one (and why oh why did she have to use that wretched 'she-wolves' title as well?), and, well, didn't have a very high opinion of them, let's say. Just the same old, same old, really. I'd been expecting more from the excellent reviews, so was very disappointed. The Norton sounds...agh! :/Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-74348184208716852502014-07-11T15:50:02.037+01:002014-07-11T15:50:02.037+01:00You're welcome and no problem! :)
But really, ...You're welcome and no problem! :)<br />But really, I guess I could be called 'converted' considering my feelings towards Edward were ambivalent at beast initially but I grew more sympathetic towards and even liked him as I learned more about his (real) side to the story, especially through your blog, so I really have to thank you for that now that I know that Edward definitely was not at all a complete failure as a human being or king :D<br />Well, about the rubbish way this supposed 'mini-biography' was written, one can hardly be surprised considering the book's title 'Princesses Behaving Badly' and you know how a lot (but definitely not all) of modern authors feel towards such 'badly behaving' princesses, queens, and noblewomen as some weird badass, awesome, empowered, and mature feminist whose values and beliefs seem to have been copied straight from the 21st century. *sighs*<br />BTW, have you heard of the books "She-Wolves" with one written by Elizabeth Norton and the other by Helen Castor? Though I was very interested and wished to get my hands on a copy when I first found out about these books since I love learning about famous, remarkable historical women, I'm not so eager anymore considering that the very first thing I read and was written about Isabella of France in the first book was about Edward II constantly humiliating and treating her badly throughout their marriage and his being like a weak, cowardly, tyrannical, and easily manipulated king along with all his adulterous ~homosexual~ affairs and the author even seemed to imply that she thought Isabella's actions were quite justified. Like seriously? >_<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-29842426397497768092014-07-08T16:48:35.882+01:002014-07-08T16:48:35.882+01:00It's just...oh God, my eyes! Just enough trut...It's just...oh God, my eyes! Just enough truth and accuracy in the mix to make it seem plausible, which is even worse. What the heck is with all these people who think they know what Isabella was thinking and planning? I hate it with a passion, this whole TragicVictim!Isabella thing, so tragically spurned and neglected by her husband, it's all just so horribly tragic when all she ever wanted and deserved was Twu Wuv 4Eva. But look! The tragic victim miraculously transforms into KickAss EmpoweredHeroine!Isabella! Saving the country from tyranny and non-heterosexual men, and let's just draw a veil over her own appalling behaviour and favouritism because that doesn't make a good end to the story! It has so little to do with Isabella's actual story, it's just some bonkers modern narrative being forced on it.<br /><br />But of course I'm preaching to the converted here ;) Thank you for the great comment.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82016201232151526872014-07-08T16:38:57.837+01:002014-07-08T16:38:57.837+01:00Exactly, it's so awful that if only it were pr...Exactly, it's so awful that if only it were printed on paper, it would be good to throw it into a bonfire. That's how bad it is *shudders*<br />Well, while not completely false, it's still largely inaccurate and presumes many stereotypes and perpetuates myths, including the whole 'red hot poker' thing which really should be concluded and told to the world once and for all that it is utterly false (well, it didn't state it was certain truth, I'll give it that, but still...) But ugh, Isabella is once again portrayed as the tragic woobie victim constantly either abused/neglected by Edward, Piers, and Hugh and who grows into a mature, empowered ass-kicking feminist -- it's really a great disservice to her memory! >_<<br />And near the end, it doesn't even state that Isabella and Roger governing the kingdom turned out to be just as bad or maybe even a tad worse than Edward's and so makes it seem as if her son Edward III is some sly, ungrateful, power-hungry, misogynistic son who greatly resented his mother and her lover's having the power that was his by right. :/ Wow...just wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-87804248118770864262014-07-07T15:25:01.396+01:002014-07-07T15:25:01.396+01:00Aghhhhh nooooo, that's hideous! :/ JUST SHOOT ...Aghhhhh nooooo, that's hideous! :/ JUST SHOOT ME NOW! :(Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-88414978506304822712014-07-07T15:21:49.090+01:002014-07-07T15:21:49.090+01:00Speaking of Isabella, Edward, and Piers...I think ...Speaking of Isabella, Edward, and Piers...I think here's another Tumblr post chock-full of myths, stereotypes, misconceptions, and exaggerations about the 3 (and others) and the fact that this post even made it to 29,404 notes makes me wonder how many people believe the crap littering and surrounding the truths in this post... >_<<br />http://leslieknope.tumblr.com/post/73498995895/french-princess-isabella-was-only-12-years-old-inAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-83856314751898213822014-07-04T11:28:58.394+01:002014-07-04T11:28:58.394+01:00'I strongly suspect that some chroniclers, wri...'<i>I strongly suspect that some chroniclers, writing decades later, confused Piers in some ways with Edward's later 'favourite' Hugh Despenser the Younger, whom Isabella most certainly did despise</i>'<br /><br />This seems quite likely to me. As well as the prosaic aspect that it's easy to mix up people and events from several decades previously, and the medieval chroniclers wouldn't have had access to search engines and vast indexed libraries for fact-checking, even if they wanted to, there's also the habit of referring to important people by their role ('earl of X') etc rather than by name, which could have made it even easier for later chroniclers to confuse Piers and Hugh if they were both thought of as the king's favourite.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-9855077257672349222014-07-04T11:04:20.309+01:002014-07-04T11:04:20.309+01:00Jerry, it's difficult to get much sense of Isa...Jerry, it's difficult to get much sense of Isabella or what she was thinking in the first few years of her marriage. She may have been influenced by her aunt, the dowager queen, but that's only my best guess. She may also have been close to her husband's niece Eleanor (de Clare) Despenser, about three years her senior, who was one of her ladies in waiting.<br /><br />Unfortunately she ruled England just as badly, or worse, as Edward and the Despensers when she got the chance.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-28553314016342649352014-07-04T11:01:14.797+01:002014-07-04T11:01:14.797+01:00Thanks so much, Kate - I'm so glad you think s...Thanks so much, Kate - I'm so glad you think so! I do try hard to be fair, as although I'm very keen to demolish the myths about Edward, I don't want to whitewash him either.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-80988999092196357372014-07-04T10:59:36.058+01:002014-07-04T10:59:36.058+01:00What an awesome post this is. Sensible, measured ...What an awesome post this is. Sensible, measured and fair. I wish other writers were as reasonable!<br />KateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48082760400485608722014-06-30T09:43:48.843+01:002014-06-30T09:43:48.843+01:00Hi Kathryn
Trying to sort out Isabella's feel...Hi Kathryn<br /><br />Trying to sort out Isabella's feelings towards Piers seems a bit like mission impossible. But as she was aged between 12 and 16 during the last years of Piers' life, she was presumably open to inluence from those closest to her like her ladies in waiting (or whatever they were called in those days). Do we know anything of who might have influenced her thinking?<br /><br />What I can imagine is her feeling some antipathy towards those lords who opposed her husband, and particularly those most closely involved in drawing up the Ordinances, because I think she would have seen this as a direct attack on Edward. That may have left her feeling closer to Piers. The help she arranged for him in Ponthieu suggests a certain amount of friendship. <br /><br />At that age she may also have been ignorant of, or naive about some of Edward's failings as a king, and which she came to recognise more as she grew older. As the daughter of Philip the Fair, she must have compared the state of France and England, probably to Edward's detriment. <br /><br />I sometimes wonder if the distrust between herself and Hugh Despenser was as much about the way England should be ruled as about a clash of personalities. By the end of 1322, after the disaster at Byland and her own harrowing flight from Tynemouth, she must have been in despair at Edward's rule, particularly when she looked back to the reigns of her brothers in France. Jerry Bennettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-3287082068421723982014-06-30T06:32:57.993+01:002014-06-30T06:32:57.993+01:00The "letter" of 1422 is a good demonstra...The "letter" of 1422 is a good demonstration that even in the fifteenth century people wanted to know more about the past, and if they couldn't find the information they needed they'd invent it -- early novelists, or at least fanficcers :). (I think you could make an interesting comparison with Anne Boleyn's supposed "from the Lady in the Tower" letter -- probably born of someone's wishful thinking about what they would have said if they had been Anne). <br /><br />As for what Isabella thought of Piers, absent some miraculous discovery we'll obviously never knew. Whatever she thought of Gaveston at the time, I'm betting that by the early 1320s she thought of him quite fondly by comparison with Despenser!Sonetkahttp://anneboleynnovels.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-58142928763596483672014-06-29T22:38:40.006+01:002014-06-29T22:38:40.006+01:00Good one once again.
I think that Isabella who wa...Good one once again.<br /><br />I think that Isabella who was very young at the time, might have even see her role as the queen to support her husband the king in everything he did. And if she did think that Piers was important for her king husband, then her reactions might have been more positive than today so many assume. She was, after all, trained to be the queen all her life and part of that role was to support the king in every which way one can.<br /><br />Now, in 1320's she was a grown woman, a mother with a princely son, and by now she had her own will too. Seeing Hugh acting up, she propably felt decent fury towards this man. But even then she had no hatred towards her husband as the letters show.<br /><br />Very very interesting woman indeed and nothing like the one we read from these silly "historic novels" today.Sami Parkkonennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-34153430021856724262014-06-29T19:59:35.331+01:002014-06-29T19:59:35.331+01:00oh, and I loved the reference to the National Enqu...oh, and I loved the reference to the National Enquirer! Puts it all in context!Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-27629540678036316782014-06-29T19:58:46.059+01:002014-06-29T19:58:46.059+01:00I LOVE this post! Thanks for all the detail on th...I LOVE this post! Thanks for all the detail on the chronicles - and challenging what they report. I didn't realise the letter from Isabella had not survived, even if she wrote it, and that the chronicle was hopelessly out of time when he reported it - therefore there was probably no letter! It makes sense confusing Piers and Despencer as well. Phillip IV must have been well aware of the relationship between Edward and Piers, whatever form it took, and I'm sure Isabella would have been put in the picture. At 12 years old, I daresay Phillip forbade consummation of the marriage - Isabella would have been too young. Isabella was probably relieved her husband spent more time with Piers than her:> Wonderful research! Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-87508900709862388922014-06-29T16:19:33.930+01:002014-06-29T16:19:33.930+01:00No. Isabella did not beg Edward to send Piers int...No. Isabella did not beg Edward to send Piers into exile. That's sheer invention. Seems to be a confusion with what happened in August 1321, when Isabella went down on her knees before Edward to beg him to exile the Despensers and prevent civil war. <br /><br />If there'd been anything at all like that between Isabella and Piers, I would have included it in the post as it would be vital to an understanding of how Isabella saw Piers. The Tynemouth issue which Isabella blamed Despenser for took place in 1322.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-3894648300567010102014-06-29T16:07:02.089+01:002014-06-29T16:07:02.089+01:00Great post! I'm curious though ... according ...Great post! I'm curious though ... according to Alison Weir (not the most accurate biographer, I know) Isabella begged Edward to send Piers into exile (granting her request would let him save face while averting a civil war with his nobility) ... but otherwise, relations were rather harmonious, and she backed Edward in his fight with Lancaster and Co. Is this true? Also, is there anything between Piers and Isabella something similar to the incidents with Despenser (IIRC, there was an incident where Isabella was in danger from the Scots, but refused anything from Despenser -- indicating to me that she was more scared of him than of the Scots, since she usually took very good care to keep herself safe)<br /><br />EstherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com