tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5595567969996427149..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Two New Novels of Edward II's Reign (2)Kathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82061581318757066652007-05-16T13:14:00.000+01:002007-05-16T13:14:00.000+01:00GeorgeD: thank you so much! It's really great tha...GeorgeD: thank you so much! It's really great that you're enjoying the blog. To be honest, I'm still kind of amazed that anyone at all reads it. ;) I started it because I had so much info about Ed II and his times swirling around in my brain, and I write a lot of the posts as a way of sorting out all the info in my head and analysing it, if that makes sense - writing the posts really clarifies my thoughts and opinions. And I thought, might as well write it online as in a Word document - maybe there's a handful of people out there who might be interested in my ramblings. ;)<BR/><BR/>I've also learnt quite a lot since I started the blog - especially about the women of Ed's reign. I do love collecting all the facts together, from different sources - and it's so exciting to find little snippets of info in unexpected places!<BR/><BR/>I just hope that I manage to get a novel finished before all of us have one foot in the grave...;)<BR/><BR/>Of course, I'd forgotten about <I>Daughter of Time</I> - I must read it again some time (I read it when I was about 16).<BR/><BR/>Please don't hesitate to comment here - I'd love to hear your opinions!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-51940828308644946362007-05-16T03:25:00.000+01:002007-05-16T03:25:00.000+01:00It's with a lot of hesitation that I'm speaking up...It's with a lot of hesitation that I'm speaking up here ... I'm standing so much in awe of this brilliant blog. If there is something here that I've not read during the last months, I must have been so unfortunate as to inexplicably overlook it. I'm no reader of historical novels, (though I promise that I'll buy your book when it's in print, Alianore!). In general, I much prefer genuine historical information. That's what I've found here, and what I relish here, and what I can't thank you enough for. When I came here, what I knew of Edward and his times just consisted in having watched the Derek Jarman film; and I can't express how grateful I am for all the knowledge and insight you are sharing on the web, for free. Let me just state that I agree with all that has been said here about changing facts and conditions for making historical novels better fit the expectations of 21st century readers. One of the reasons why I don't like reading historical novels is that they always give me the feeling of looking on a strange landscape through a keyhole ... which is the author's mind. And that all too frequent attitude of "we must set auld wrongs right" is particularly unnerving. No, you're not the only one getting sick of this:<BR/><BR/><I>here's the 'woman as perpetual victim' theme. [...] "She's a strong, empowered woman...but ooooh, she did something horrid! Blame a man, quick! It can't possibly be her fault! She's not strong after all, a nasty man made her do it, poor ickle thing! But look, now she's doing something praiseworthy! Suddenly she's strong and empowered again, and the man had nothing to do with it!"</I><BR/><BR/>If I hadn't loved your blog before, I'd love it because of that paragraph!<BR/><BR/>Just one word on Richard III. Methinks that battle is raging since 1952, when Josephine Tey published her not so historical novel "The Daughter of Time"; which I love very much, but wouldn't recommend to anyone who thinks history writing should never be critizised. However, none of Tey's criticisms would apply to this blog -- and that's the highest praise I can think of for any one dealing with history.GeorgeDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661452433831783193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-20491300759315446082007-05-15T13:35:00.000+01:002007-05-15T13:35:00.000+01:00Exactly, Carla - that's why I love reading Ed II h...Exactly, Carla - that's why I love reading Ed II historical fiction, to gain new insights into the possible motivations of Ed, Isa, Mortimer etc. It's fascinating to see how authors can write the same events with such different interpretations. Of course the same applies to other historical events. The story of Anne Boleyn, say, has been written so many times, with a different Anne each time. It's great! :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-8044810973127300782007-05-15T13:27:00.001+01:002007-05-15T13:27:00.001+01:00I agree. If a novel is going to use real events a...I agree. If a novel is going to use real events and people it ought to get them right as far as possible. There are usually more than enough holes in the known facts to spin a story in, and there's almost always enormous scope for interpreting character and motivation. If the events don't fit the story, I much prefer an invented world, a la Guy Gavriel Kay, rather than a novel with the real history twisted out of shape. <BR/><BR/>It's exactly right that the key cornerstones of story - character and motivation - are nearly always missing from the records, and that's where the historical novel can flower. Likely no two authors will agree - e.g. the demonisation/canonisation of Richard III - but that's part of the pleasure of historical fiction.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-69349940526358762552007-05-15T13:27:00.000+01:002007-05-15T13:27:00.000+01:00I'll have to check out Gillian Bradshaw's Arthuria...I'll have to check out Gillian Bradshaw's Arthurian trilogy, now that two of you have recommended it!<BR/><BR/>Joanne - I know, if I ever read the word 'feisty' again to describe the heroine of a novel, I might well scream. ;) Also, novels which show the 'strength' of a female character by making her stroppy ("Look, she argues with men! How strong she is!") And novels which have women in the Middle Ages making a living as painters, which I seem to have seen quite a bit lately (though I can't remember where, haha!)<BR/><BR/>The most brilliantly inaccurate historical novel I've ever seen is Evangelynn Stratton's <I>Lady Blue</I>, which I assumed had to be a parody, but unfortunately isn't. It's set in England in 1499, and the characters are called things like Willow, Rutherford Sedgeworth III, Ivy, Frank and Eartha. They eat jacket potatoes, tomato salad and chocolate mousse, drink tea, and ask the police for help...;) And loads more! That's one of the novels that has a woman as a painter, come to think of it.<BR/><BR/>The Gray novel sounds like she handles the concept of arranged marriage very well.<BR/><BR/>Yes, books that start very promisingly, but don't match up to expectations, are very disappointing. I much prefer novels that are the other way round! I've just been reading Carol Wensby-Scott's Percy trilogy, and didn't think at first that I'd get into the first one - but after a few pages I was hooked, and I think all three novels are brilliant.<BR/><BR/>My personal favourite novel of Penman's is <I>The Reckoning</I>, the last part of her Welsh trilogy. (This may be because Edward I, Eleanor of Castile and other people I know a lot about are in it...;) The story continues from the first two, <I>Here Be Dragons</I> and <I>Falls the Shadow</I>, but I think you could read it as a stand-alone too. I was glad that Penman had given up her (to me) irritating habit of writing dialogue such as 'I did tell him' and 'Be the lads all right?'<BR/><BR/><I>The Reckoning</I> is the story of Llywelyn the Last, Prince of Wales, his wife Eleanor de Montfort, and Edward I's conquest of Wales. There's a very long list of characters, though, and it's very detailed.<BR/><BR/>My problem is that I'm so fascinated by everyone and everything in Ed II's reign, I haven't been able to commit to a fixed number of characters and a plot, if you get what I mean. So I've written hundreds of thousands of words, and I still don't have anything approximating a novel. ;) But, all the writing is good practice - I can really see the difference in quality between my later work and when I first started - and I know the characters very well, so it's certainly not a waste. It will probably be years before I have anything finished... It would be great to get it published the traditional route, but it's still so far in the future, it's hard to say at the moment! :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-17775164003213873752007-05-15T11:20:00.000+01:002007-05-15T11:20:00.000+01:00Yeah, I have my own laundry list of peeves in hist...Yeah, I have my own laundry list of peeves in historicals, including the old cliche of the spitfire girl who dresses up as a boy but is still unbelievably hot. Oh yes, and who hates anything "ladylike" and rushes around being all feisty and tomboyish. *yawns* <BR/><BR/>I think the whole "arranged marriage" issue was handled well by Elizabeth Janet Gray in the children's classic, "Adam of the Road." Adam, a 10 year old minstrel's son, is having a discussion with his friend Hugh; he's comparing his other friend Simon, a poor but handsome squire, to a character in a romance (one about a poor squire who marries a king's daughter) because Simon is in love with one of the lord's daughters. Hugh tells Adam that the daughter in question is promised to a rich knight- so why should she marry a poor squire? "Maybe she'd rather marry Simon," says Adam; and Hugh tells him she's only a girl and she needs to do what she's told.<BR/><BR/>For a moment Adam ponders the discrepancy between reality and the world of romance; then he shrugs it off. A few pages later, the daughter gets married to the rich knight, and Adam's only thoughts are for where he and his dad will go next. So, the author throws a small bone to modern sensibilities, but doesn't lay it on with a trowel. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, yes- "Queen of Shadows" does sound very silly, and I can understand your frustration about a book with promising elements, but ultimately derails. I feel the same way about Isolde Martyn's books... :P <BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should try one of Penman's later books, before I write her off completely. Is there one you recommend? Hopefully, it's not too dense. One of my main problems with a lot of adult historical novels is that they strike me as being really pompous and overwritten. From what I've read of Penman, she definitely falls into that camp... but perhaps one of her later books would be more my cup of tea?<BR/><BR/>From what I've read of your writing, you do remind me a bit of Gillian Bradshaw. I particularly like "Cleopatra's Heir," "Render unto Caesar" and "Imperial Purple." Her Arthurian trilogy is also exceptionally good. (As for Hilary Mantel, her French Revolution novel, "A Place of Greater Safety," is amazing. As for Sabatini, "Scaramouche" [French Rev as well] and "The Sea Hawk" [Elizabethan England/the Barbary Coast] are classics of historical adventure.) <BR/><BR/>So, if you don't mind my asking, how far along are you? Are you thinking of finding a publisher, or going the self-publishing route?suburbanbeatnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15628494445950673866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-83492053370092896482007-05-14T18:18:00.000+01:002007-05-14T18:18:00.000+01:00Gillian Bradshaw has written some pretty good book...Gillian Bradshaw has written some pretty good books. I don't like everything by her, but the Arthur trilogy (which is historical Fantasy), <I>Beacon of Alexandria</I>, <I>Island of Ghosts</I> and <I>Wolf Hunt</I> are among my favourite books.<BR/><BR/>Weir's attitude towards Isabella reminds me a bit of Stefan Zweig's portrayal of Mary Stuart - when she's wrong it's because of the men she falls in lust with. ;)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-24833639515951814702007-05-14T09:36:00.000+01:002007-05-14T09:36:00.000+01:00That's true, Joanne, and I wonder if it's even pos...That's true, Joanne, and I wonder if it's even possible to write a historical novel where modern attitudes and beliefs don't creep in occasionally. And even if you could - you also have to make your characters sympathetic to your modern audience, so it's a balancing act. I'm just sick of reading historical novels where people act shocked that they'll be 'forced' into an arranged marriage, and where women have nearly as much freedom as today (in many parts of the world at least).<BR/><BR/>With reference to my complaint that Isabella wasn't in Scotland in 1312, I should have pointed out in the post that it wouldn't bother me if Felber had put her in, say, Lincoln, when she was actually in York. Even I'm not that picky - unless she still puts forward the theory that Ed II didn't father Ed III. ;) What annoys me is that Scotland back then was a foreign country, at war with England, which is a totally different scenario from putting Isabella in another part of England. And the mysterious Scottish lover is really irritating.<BR/><BR/>I much preferred Penman's Welsh trilogy to <I>Sunne in Splendour</I> - most of the characters seemed far more real to me. I'll have to take a look at your favourite novelists - haven't read anything by them yet, so thanks for the recommendation!<BR/><BR/>And yes, I'm extremely flattered by the comparison to Penman - thank you very much! :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-14959779515130743272007-05-14T08:29:00.000+01:002007-05-14T08:29:00.000+01:00All writers, I think, always reflect the culture t...All writers, I think, always reflect the culture they write in, even when they try to be true to the culture of an earlier period. I suppose the difference lies in how hard one attempts to portray the period...<BR/><BR/>As I stated earlier, I have absolutely no respect for Henley; I think she's a talentless and dishonest hack. As for Penman, I've tried to read "Sunne in Splendour" on the recommendation of a medievalist friend, but wasn't able to get beyond fifty pages. Maybe all the battles and such were portrayed accurately, but I couldn't shake the feeling that all the characters were 1980s people in SCA clothing. I also found myself completely uninterested in the proceedings, and felt that I was given no reason to care about anyone in it. When I put the book down, I remember thinking I'd probably better learn more about the Wars of the Roses from well-written non-fiction, then from that particular novel. <BR/> <BR/>My favorite historical novelists are Gillian Bradshaw, Hilary Mantel and Rafael Sabatini. I'm sure you'd be flattered to know that I enjoyed your excerpts on your site a lot more than anything written by Penman! *grins*suburbanbeatnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15628494445950673866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-77416773889908882822007-05-14T05:48:00.000+01:002007-05-14T05:48:00.000+01:00Kathy - thanks for dropping by and commenting - gl...Kathy - thanks for dropping by and commenting - glad you liked the post!<BR/><BR/>Liam - thanks too. To be fair, 'Wolf' is apparently a nickname bestowed in early childhood, because he likes wolves so much. (He has a perfectly tame pet wolf.) But we never learn his real name.<BR/><BR/>There's a good short article here, saying that Brianna is not found before the modern era: <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/brianna.shtml" REL="nofollow">Brianna</A>Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-51346590639698305922007-05-14T00:36:00.000+01:002007-05-14T00:36:00.000+01:00This is such a good read! Love it!This is such a good read! Love it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-68049996721289992852007-05-14T00:01:00.000+01:002007-05-14T00:01:00.000+01:00Another great post Alianore! I couldn't agree more...Another great post Alianore! I couldn't agree more with your statement that authors who want such total control over characters and events should stick to total fiction. Why do they insist on writing about real, historical characters if they're going to change things so totally? It doesn't make sense. On a side not, I wonder how many girls were called 'Brianna' in the 1300s?? And how many boys were called 'Wolf'?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03188874002836550379noreply@blogger.com