tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5988664177069171996..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Edmund Fitzalan, earl of ArundelKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-3525517817747371832013-11-02T04:36:20.726+00:002013-11-02T04:36:20.726+00:00A fabulous, informative post, Kathryn!
So, Edmund...A fabulous, informative post, Kathryn!<br /><br />So, Edmund of Arundel was half Italian! That means he may have been dark. For years I've followed Sandra Wilson's blonde image of him from her book, "Alice"--which, after I saw "Legends of the Fall", morphed into a bearded Brad Pitt. (Yeah, Baby!!) Since so much time has passed, it might be difficult for me to rethink it.<br /><br />I've always believed that Edmund felt remorse over his involvement in Piers' murder and begged Edward's forgiveness right away. The mystery is why Edward absolved him. One reason might have been to divide and conquer--if Edward allowed Edmund back into favor it would weaken the opposition. I've also wondered if Edmund regretted his decision to take part in the proceedings from the start. Though he couldn't save Piers, he might have done Piers some kindness at the last. <br /><br /> 1) Edmund might have delivered a final message from Piers to Edward that Edward knew could only have come from Piers. 2) Though Piers was captured in his undershirt and hose, I'm sure Guy of Warwick confiscated any belongings Piers still had with him. Edmund may have given Piers his clothes back--and perhaps arranged a bath for him after days of captivity--allowing Piers the chance to die with dignity. 3) Edmund might have eased Piers's suffering in other ways, such as ensuring that Piers was fed properly and the guards didn't physically abuse him.<br /><br />And that brings to mind disturbing memories. In the two novels I've read about Piers--one with a few redeeming scenes and the other one odious--Piers either is, or allows himself to be, raped. I don't believe that happened. If it had, his captors would have discovered the large uncut ruby "on his person" before, rather than after, his death. My theory is that he had it hidden in the pocket of his braies--where men are said to have stored valuables--which would explain why no one found it sooner. (Yes, my research of medieval clothing even included knickers.) Of course, I don't think Brandy Purdy is aware of how her characters dressed. It seemed she was constantly having someone yank Piers' hose down as though they went up to his waist. As I'm sure you know, stockings were tied to the underpants just above knees. Does the woman think he wore pantyhose?!<br /><br />But I digress. As long as Guy knew he had successfully brought about Piers' demise, he may have been willing to tolerate his co-conspirator displaying a little charity toward the condemned. While Edmund chose to witness the murder, he might have been there--though only Piers would have known <br />it--as a sympathetic observer, to give support to a man dying alone. Edmund would also have needed to hide his intention to defect.<br /><br />From that time forward, Edmund seems to have been loyal to Edward, other than failing to answer the call to arms at Bannockburn. And he might have thought he had a good reason for staying away! I've read that he and the other earls responsible for Piers's death were afraid that if Edward won the day against Robert the Bruce, he would turn his army on them. (The one exception being Humphrey of Hereford, who knew he would be spared for his wife's sake.) Perhaps Edmund wasn't sure that he had been entirely forgiven. But at the last Edmund gave up his life to remain loyal to Edward, paying his debt in full.MRatsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-30961152628898958992012-02-15T09:18:21.046+00:002012-02-15T09:18:21.046+00:00Thank you for letting me know, Amalia! I'm re...Thank you for letting me know, Amalia! I'm really glad you find my blog helpful and interesting!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-13108518430938114622012-02-14T20:53:24.685+00:002012-02-14T20:53:24.685+00:00I have only started my family history in the last ...I have only started my family history in the last 12 months and I found your blog a few days ago. thank you so much. I am a descended from the evil Despencers, Fitzalans and Henry III. If I am looking for information on any of my ancestors about these times I just go straight to your blog. No more is needed than what you have written. Keep up the great work.<br /><br />I can not believe how interesting English history is.Amaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02267592297261115370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-74127948614087684982008-08-13T15:48:00.000+01:002008-08-13T15:48:00.000+01:00A few people seem to be interested in my great-gra...A few people seem to be interested in my great-grandfather's "copped hat" so I will reveal the story behind it. Not much of a story really, but one day my grandfather was gambling with a few other men. One of them lost a toss and paid off his debt with his hat. My great-grandfather becoming the new owner of said hat. The hat has lost it brownish-copper color, but it stood several inches high and was very plain. For some reason he would never reveal, Grandpapa always wore the hat at a crooked angle and he became known as "Copped Hat." My grandfather kept that hat, which I have inherited and it now remains in the family library.<BR/>Lady ShirleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-67980252081370539982008-08-13T15:40:00.000+01:002008-08-13T15:40:00.000+01:00Once again, another good read on my great-grandfat...Once again, another good read on my great-grandfather. You have all your information correct and make it interesting at the same time...well done! Lady ShirleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-7614826795842708422008-06-01T20:01:00.000+01:002008-06-01T20:01:00.000+01:00Hi Bonnie!Wow, that's a terrific idea! That had n...Hi Bonnie!<BR/><BR/>Wow, that's a terrific idea! That had never even occurred to me, but you've really got me thinking now. I've always been puzzled by the way Ed so readily forgave Edmund. Even as early as Dec 1312, Edmund is not mentioned in a settlement between Ed and the men who killed Piers 6 months earlier, whereas men who were present at Warwick castle, but not at Piers' death, <I>are</I> mentioned. And in Oct 1313, Ed II pardoned over 350 men for all actions regarding Piers' capture, detention and death - and again, Edmund is not one of them. Given the fact that he was certainly present when Piers was murdered, I find that <I>deeply</I> odd.<BR/><BR/>I'd always assumed Edmund was hated in the 1320s because he'd become an ally of the Despensers by then, and married his son to the younger Despenser's daughter. But maybe you're right - there was something else going on! Thanks for the suggestion!! ;)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-7271604526555994382008-06-01T19:27:00.000+01:002008-06-01T19:27:00.000+01:00From Bonnie JRHi, I just found out about this part...From Bonnie JR<BR/><BR/>Hi, I just found out about this particular ancestor -- haven't counted the gr gr's to know which grandfather. But coming newly to the question, I wonder whether my grandfather, Edward II, pardoned my grandfather Edmund Fitzalan so readily because Grandfather Edmund came across with sexual favors? Could that also account for the vicious hatred held against Edmund? Just a thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-65589327161609171932007-03-10T23:20:00.000+00:002007-03-10T23:20:00.000+00:00Edmund's great-great-granddaughter Joan married Th...Edmund's great-great-granddaughter Joan married Thomas Stanley, and their son, also Thomas, was married to Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry Tudor. He was a key figure at the battle of Bosworth, together with his brother William. The third brother John, my 14G grandfather, stayed at home.Eric Aveburyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14798868875167454423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-70002499516923840762007-03-05T18:58:00.000+00:002007-03-05T18:58:00.000+00:00Thanks for the explanation - I'd prefer to think t...Thanks for the explanation - I'd prefer to think the nickname referred to his headgear or the colour of his hair, rather than a macabre joke about his father's fate! I know people were a lot less sentimental about death than we are now, but still....Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-26347582590782955202007-03-05T18:23:00.000+00:002007-03-05T18:23:00.000+00:00Thanks, Susan and Liam! It does seem odd that Edw...Thanks, Susan and Liam! It does seem odd that Edward II forgave Edmund for Piers' murder, but the way I see it, he put all the blame on Lancaster. Ed probably assumed that the others wouldn't have dared kill Piers without Lancaster's consent. He waited just under 10 years to get revenge on his cousin!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-29454241084609562192007-03-05T13:53:00.000+00:002007-03-05T13:53:00.000+00:00Great post as ever, Alianore! Never knew about Edm...Great post as ever, Alianore! Never knew about Edmund's Italian mother. Kate, thanks!Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-18381628760028962572007-03-05T13:16:00.000+00:002007-03-05T13:16:00.000+00:00Interesting post! Edmund's volte-face is very inte...Interesting post! Edmund's volte-face is very interesting, but even more so is the fact that Edward II seemed to forgive Edmund's involvement in Piers' death! Considering the depth of his feeling for Piers, that's quite odd, isn't it??Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03188874002836550379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-59777414282829995042007-03-05T10:19:00.000+00:002007-03-05T10:19:00.000+00:00Thanks, Kate! You certainly do have some illustri...Thanks, Kate! You certainly do have some illustrious ancestors! Haha, yes, maybe Richard was a redhead...<BR/><BR/>I like to think of Isabel Despenser as being happy that she and Richard got divorced. It seems that she and Richard were totally incompatible, so maybe it was the best option for her. He gave her a few manors to live on (which he could easily afford, of course) so at least she wasn't lacking in a material sense. Whether she married again is unknown, but I really hope she was happier later in life!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-52130690848337405722007-03-05T10:03:00.000+00:002007-03-05T10:03:00.000+00:00Great post! I am Edmund's 23 x great grand daught...Great post! I am Edmund's 23 x great grand daughter and no title for me! I am wondering if copped hat meant dear Richard had red hair! Copped as in copper? Anyway, it is fun to guess, and thank you for all the great information. Poor Isabel Despenser! Someone better took Richard's eye. I really loved the link to Susan's article. The last sentence in her Fitzalan article was terrific!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-52001468343339794032007-03-04T12:20:00.000+00:002007-03-04T12:20:00.000+00:00Carla, there are a couple of theories about the na...Carla, there are a couple of theories about the name 'Copped Hat'. One: it could mean a high-crowned, brimless hat popular at the time (that Richard presumably wore). Two: Edward III's biographer says 'copped' means 'topped' or 'beheaded' and is a joking reference to the fate of Richard's father.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48936408831468275222007-03-04T10:52:00.000+00:002007-03-04T10:52:00.000+00:00That's an impressive list of descendants! I didn'...That's an impressive list of descendants! I didn't know about the Howard connection.<BR/><BR/>The nicknames are fascinating me. Why was Richard called "Copped Hat"? What was a copped hat, and what was its significance?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.com