tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post692992778998467655..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Yet Another AbductionKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-279132591932013632019-07-10T10:27:23.163+01:002019-07-10T10:27:23.163+01:00Hi again Sarah! The source for Maud de Clare marry...Hi again Sarah! The source for Maud de Clare marrying Robert Clifford in 1295 is a monastic chronicle: Annales Monastici, vol. 4, ed. H. R. Luard, p. 523. They married on 13 November 1295. Their first son Roger was born in either early 1299 or early 1300, according to the evidence of Robert's inq. post mortem after he was killed at Bannockburn. Their second son and ultimate heir Robert the younger was born in 1305. I'm not sure of the source for the 1289 agreement between Clare and Umfraville but almost certainly the Patent or Close Roll - I can check that easily if it helps.<br /><br />I'm confused as to whether Maud Clifford or Margaret (Umfraville) Badlesmere was the elder of the two de Clare daughters. There seems to be evidence for both. Their brother Gilbert was born in Limerick on 3 February 1281 (his proof of age still exists) and their other brother Richard was born about 1283 or 1285, according to Gilbert's inq. post mortem in late 1307. I'm sure I've written a blog post somewhere about Maud and Margaret but it needs updating...hope to do that sometime :-)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-90701222287906243532019-07-02T17:23:31.532+01:002019-07-02T17:23:31.532+01:00Hi Sarah! I'm away at the moment but Will rep!...Hi Sarah! I'm away at the moment but Will rep!y to your comment next week! ☺Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82329275241319481702019-07-02T14:42:50.576+01:002019-07-02T14:42:50.576+01:00Hi Kathryn,
a bit late commenting on this post, b...Hi Kathryn,<br /><br />a bit late commenting on this post, but I've also been reading about the Clare family and was a bit stumped with the ages of Margaret and Maud.<br /><br />I read in Michael Altschul's book about the Clare family that in 1289 the Red Earl gave the Earl of Angus (Umfraville) 1,200 marks to have the marriage of his son (Gilbert) for Margaret.<br />Althschul also gives 1295 as the date Maud marries Clifford, but no source is given.<br /><br />I've since found The Complete Peerage online, this says Robert Clifford marries Maud Clare the 2nd and youngest daughter of Thomas de Clare but unfortunately doesn't give a date. <br /><br />Really enjoy your blog and your books btw!Sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-81113120828052946632010-02-10T08:48:41.894+00:002010-02-10T08:48:41.894+00:00Carla: I would think so, as I'm sure John'...Carla: I would think so, as I'm sure John's motive in abducting Maud must have been to marry her, for her wealth. So a lucky escape for her!<br /><br />Gabriele: I know, amazing, isn't it?? I'm sure Hugh must have taken some commission on the deal. ;)<br /><br />Kate: it might have been a good idea, I think! I was discussing Ralph Stafford's abduction of Margaret Audley in 1336 with Christy recently, and I was very surprised that such a desirable heiress was a) not yet married and b) left somewhere where she could be abducted. I'm researching several women at the moment for upcoming posts, maybe ancestors of yours - Isabella Mortimer Fitzalan (d 1292) and Eleanor Fitzalan Percy (d 1328)<br /><br />STAG: thank you for dropping by, and the kind comments! Glad you liked the post.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-78777325849066462052010-02-10T06:36:27.930+00:002010-02-10T06:36:27.930+00:00Remarkable essay
What a romantic story just in tim...Remarkable essay<br />What a romantic story just in time for Valentine's Day<br /><br />Thank youSTAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06198646624631167489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-39980679183752061032010-02-10T05:20:37.881+00:002010-02-10T05:20:37.881+00:00Do you think family members locked heiresses away ...Do you think family members locked heiresses away - as in "Princess in the tall tower" kind of way?!!! It would be for their own good. Poor women. If their family didn't protect them.....eeeek! Thanks once again for highlighting the women. Their stories are just as fascinating, and I agree with Susan....so glad Maud had a knight in shining armour.Kate Plantagenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241511561334259406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-40895342007975774272010-02-10T00:03:46.943+00:002010-02-10T00:03:46.943+00:00Hugh le Despenser aided someone to grab some land?...Hugh le Despenser <i>aided</i> someone to grab some land? Was that his apprenticeship?:)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-69685147619646391232010-02-09T21:44:40.495+00:002010-02-09T21:44:40.495+00:00Poor Maud. Is it likely that John le Ireys intend...Poor Maud. Is it likely that John le Ireys intended to persuade or force her to marry him, and was forestalled by the arrival of the cavalry?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-10285528818219193412010-02-08T07:44:44.005+00:002010-02-08T07:44:44.005+00:00Thanks, Susan! I really hope Maud and Robert were...Thanks, Susan! I really hope Maud and Robert were happy together.<br /><br />Louis: unfortunately, that would also be my take on the situation, poor lady. :(<br /><br />Brad: thank you! The Clare ladies and their lives really are fascinating, and I love researching them.<br /><br />I stumbled on an entry in the Fine Rolls yesterday, which of course I can't find again now I'm actually looking for it, which described Margaret Badlesmere in 1327 as the 'senior heir' of their brother and nephew, which would tend to confirm she was the elder sister. It seems she must have been about 10 years older than is generally thought. <br /><br />The Genealogics site gives 13 Nov 1295 as the date of Maud and Robert Clifford's wedding, but I don't know what the source is. Presumably it must have been arranged long before that.<br /><br />Yes, whatever else Edward and the men of his court were, they certainly weren't a bunch of fops! John le Ireys reminds me a lot of a man close to Edward called Robert Ewer or Lewer, another violent type.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-60358309619869259142010-02-08T05:12:20.732+00:002010-02-08T05:12:20.732+00:00Poor Lady Maud! One may only hope that she was not...Poor Lady Maud! One may only hope that she was not violated, but when a man is the type to abduct a woman, he is likely also the type to force her in other ways. :(Louis Xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05104477464448107772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-12853344453622065102010-02-08T02:43:33.718+00:002010-02-08T02:43:33.718+00:00Kathryn, what a great post! The Clare women certa...Kathryn, what a great post! The Clare women certainly suffered for being the survivors of that lineage - it's incredible that all five female cousins were imprisoned at one point in their lives, and that three out of five were abducted. There's a lot to be learned from researching their lives, and my hats off to you for all the important work you're doing!<br /><br />Wonderful find with the 1327 petition! I wonder where Margaret's supposed birth in Ireland in 1287 originates from? Since she apparently was older than Maud, that means she was born before 1279, which puts her much closer to the age of her husband Badlesmere, born about 1275.<br /><br />It also makes her giving birth in her late 30s, since son and heir Giles Badlesmere was born in October 1314, and there was a youngest daughter, Margaret, apparently born after him.<br /><br />Earl Gilbert the Red arranged Margaret's marriage to the Umfraville heir in 1289. Since Maud was younger, her marriage would have been arranged next, but probably not much later. Robert Clifford was returned to the wardship of Edmund, Earl of Cornwall, in 1291, and Earl Gilbert would have made sure Clifford was linked to the Clares by marriage before he went to Cornwall's household.<br /><br />Edward's household seemed to be full of hotheaded alpha-male soldiers, this John le Ireys being one of many examples. So much for the court of effeminate favorites that is so often portrayed or intimated because of the homosexual angle.Brad Verityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12625952433525136026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-9226473697243302152010-02-07T16:38:51.982+00:002010-02-07T16:38:51.982+00:00Fascinating post! Glad to know that Maud found a k...Fascinating post! Glad to know that Maud found a knight in shining armor!Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.com