tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post7028564586070359936..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Edward II's Return to England, February 1308Kathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-11464488220520331322009-02-09T16:26:00.000+00:002009-02-09T16:26:00.000+00:00Well, there's that saying Gelegenheit macht Diebe ...Well, there's that saying <I>Gelegenheit macht Diebe</I> (chance makes thieves) and esp. in case of Ed and Piers who both were at an age when boys experiment sexually I'm pretty sure they tried - and liked - it. Which doesn't mean they didn't enjoy sex with women as well.<BR/><BR/>But not every bed-sharing ended up naughty. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-9592386105172337592009-02-09T10:47:00.000+00:002009-02-09T10:47:00.000+00:00Gabriele: *grin* Good point!Anerje: that would mak...Gabriele: *grin* Good point!<BR/><BR/>Anerje: that would make a great novel. ;) It <I>is</I> possible that Isa did see Ed kiss Piers - only it's not a 'fact', as stated in so many books. (Which is true of many things endlessly repeated as 'fact' about Ed II, which are anything but when you look at the primary sources.)<BR/><BR/>Ceirseach: yes, there's the sharing a bed bit - and the statement that Richard confessed that he was guilty of sodomy - which has been taken to mean sex with men, and although it might mean that, sodomy had a much wider meaning in the Middle Ages than in modern English. There's also a statement that he passed on his discarded mistresses to his men and had( female) prostitutes brought to him on his death-bed, so if he did have male lovers, he evidently had plenty of female ones, too. Edward IV shared his bed with Lord Hastings and the duke of Somerset (maybe not at the same time, though!) as a sign of respect and trust. <BR/><BR/>It's beyond doubt that Ed loved Piers, and Hugh Despenser, but how he loved them is hard to say for sure. I'm putting up a post tomorrow which includes a bit about Piers G loving the earl of Richmond 'beyond measure', which no-one at the time or since has taken as evidence that the men were having an affair. Ditto the earl of Lancaster's statement that he loved Robert Holland 'so much', after Holland betrayed him in 1322. <I>Autre temps, autre moeurs</I>...<BR/><BR/>There really is a heck of a lot of salacious writing about Ed's reign, in fiction and even non-fiction - such as the recent theory that Ed, Despenser, Eleanor D and Isa indulged in wife-swapping!!?? Stretching the evidence to breaking-point, methinks.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-59491439798919640372009-02-09T08:09:00.000+00:002009-02-09T08:09:00.000+00:00IIRC, the "proof" that Richard I was having a homo...IIRC, the "proof" that Richard I was having a homosexual relationship with Philip of France comes down largely to a report that they were sharing a bed - but that, as Gabriele says, isn't proof of a sexual relationship, since beds were often shared out of necessity or friendship. Reports of Philip's father getting absolutely furious over it are more likely to be because of the political implications of the act - which would, of course, have been done with that in mind - than sexual ones.<BR/><BR/>And that does apply here too. Many historians (and, I'd guess, historical fiction writers, though I confess I haven't read any Ed fiction!) make a whole lot of capital over that description, or the lines in the <I>Vita</I> about Edward loving Piers more than Jonathan loved David, which you quote somewhere in your sidebar. And they do look like they imply that, taken out of context - the more so because they are written as if they were relating a scandal. Just - the scandal needn't be the scandal we'd read into it, ie, homosexuality. In context, the scandal the author of the <I>Vita</I> is complaining about is Edward's elevation of Piers above those who ought to be his betters, and the singularity of his dependence on him to the exclusion of all others' counsel. And really, that's <I>more</I> than enough to be an enormous scandal. It's jsut not... salacious enough for us. :)<BR/><BR/>So, yes. Long rambling agreement! We clearly feel the need to spice things up, shape the scandal to modern eyes.Hannah Kilpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750010843246514032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-18090228448998243562009-02-08T20:17:00.000+00:002009-02-08T20:17:00.000+00:00Did they play Premiership football????LMAO Clem!I ...Did they play Premiership football????<BR/><BR/>LMAO Clem!<BR/><BR/>I expect Isa clapped eyes on Piers and thought 'OMG, he's gorgeous' - and fully understood Ed hugging and kissing him. Now, a historical novel from that perspective would be so much more refreshing. Great post Alianore - but you have killed off a great Ed myth:)Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-80406687517177783292009-02-08T14:02:00.000+00:002009-02-08T14:02:00.000+00:00Medieaval times were different. Two men sharing a ...Medieaval times were different. Two men sharing a bed was nothing unusual, though I won't be surprised if that close proximity led to a few experiments that would not have taken place in other circumstances. ;) So yes, public embraces and kisses were a symbolic action, not a sexual one. But the symbolic impact in this case surely angered the barons who were reduced to second rank that way.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-61836766671373458852009-02-08T08:19:00.000+00:002009-02-08T08:19:00.000+00:00Lady D: I don't know if Eleanor was there or not -...Lady D: I don't know if Eleanor was there or not - maybe, but she's not mentioned. Because Isabella's household records are missing until 1311, it's hard to say for sure if Eleanor was her lady-in-waiting as early as 1308 or not (she most likely was, though).<BR/><BR/>Susan: to judge from chronicles, there's no doubt that Ed did hug and kiss Piers - only that it's impossible to say for sure if Isa witnessed it.<BR/><BR/>Clement: *grins*<BR/><BR/>Carla: it certainly sounds that like that was the case, though I don't know if this was a typical way of arriving at Dover.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-15181107927171144942009-02-07T21:48:00.000+00:002009-02-07T21:48:00.000+00:00Why "in his barge"? I associate barges with river...Why "in his barge"? I associate barges with river traffic, rather than cross-channel shipping. Did ships dock some way off shore and passengers transfer to a smaller boat to get ashore?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23241319780424010382009-02-07T17:50:00.000+00:002009-02-07T17:50:00.000+00:00".......run to Piers among them, giving him kisses...".......run to Piers among them, giving him kisses and repeated embraces; he was adored with a singular familiarity."<BR/><BR/>Did they play Premiership football????Clement Glenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14116966238223089211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-69670024836004702142009-02-07T17:36:00.000+00:002009-02-07T17:36:00.000+00:00Guilty of having Piers and Edward giving a big hug...Guilty of having Piers and Edward giving a big hug! But at least Ed did make sure that Isabella had a grand welcome to her new country.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-3857391672673190602009-02-07T12:11:00.000+00:002009-02-07T12:11:00.000+00:00A nice, timely post :-). from what I remember (fro...A nice, timely post :-). from what I remember (from reading, not because I was there lol) - I think Eleanor de Clare Despenser was at Dover to greet the queen too - as one of her chief ladies in waiting.<BR/><BR/>As for the Ed/Piers hug - far too much salacious drama has been made out of that. I personally doubt that Isabella saw it at all. Even if she had, she probably wouldn't have seen it as anything other than a greeting between two good friends. As you said, the problem was with the barons being jealous of Piers's prominent position both as regent and his closeness to Edward.Jules Frusherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207281934232383811noreply@blogger.com