tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post7415740268684930929..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Eleanor and Margaret de BohunKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-74003958836091229612023-03-05T06:41:48.831+00:002023-03-05T06:41:48.831+00:00 Exeter Cathedral has the Countess of Devon and w... Exeter Cathedral has the Countess of Devon and with her the tomb with the White Swans from the time of Exeter being a Bishopric, in 1930 it appears that the family palster was sold and is in a Austrian museum, which should make interesting reading if true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-33725357387543942592020-08-21T06:57:18.856+01:002020-08-21T06:57:18.856+01:00Thank you :-) I need to edit the post actually as ...Thank you :-) I need to edit the post actually as Eleanor de Bohun's date of birth is wrong - she was born c. 1310, not 1304, I've since discovered.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-68006970475043195912020-08-21T00:10:54.431+01:002020-08-21T00:10:54.431+01:00Wow I don't think Margaret needed to count she...Wow I don't think Margaret needed to count sheep if she had trouble falling asleep in her later years as listing all her offspring could have done the job wonderfully :). I am a little bit confused by the information on the Eleanor - Dagworth offspring. Especially the article on Nicholas on the History of Parliament website saying "Nicholas may well have been that nephew of Thomas [Lord Dagworth] who was serving with him in Brittany in 1346." And also a lot of sites mention an Eleanor as the only child from the marriage with Dagworth, although I haven't double checked those sources yet :). Anyway, this is a very enlightening post on these two <br />ladies :). Emőke Kovácshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06512355557053187383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-43739396139907980702015-06-27T15:14:22.217+01:002015-06-27T15:14:22.217+01:00Thanks for the useful insight on Eleanor, you'...Thanks for the useful insight on Eleanor, you've provided some details I'd not picked up previously.<br /><br />Just a note on her children with Thomas de Dagworth: Thomasine (d.1409) was actually the widow of Thomas' nephew John(III) de Dagworth (d.1360), not Thomas' daughter. I encountered this error myself (in CP(4)?), which presumably originated from the tempting similarity in names.<br /><br />Ref: National Archives C 143/309/11:<br />John de Daggeworth, knight, to settle the manor of Dagworth, with the advowson of the church there, on himself, Thomasia his wife, and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to himself and his heirs, retaining the manor of Thrandeston. Suffolk. (27 EDWARD III, ie 1354)<br /><br />Best wishes, Jeremy<br />Jeremy Steventon-Barneshttp://dagworth.steventon-barnes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-22524822348192828262014-01-31T17:01:39.446+00:002014-01-31T17:01:39.446+00:00I recently was going though my family pedigree for...I recently was going though my family pedigree for the first time and started to google names. I appreciate the information that you have provided of my ancestor. Very interesting.katiesmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11232342863646440012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-91574479184485396412013-10-30T17:22:55.904+00:002013-10-30T17:22:55.904+00:00Thank you! :-) Glad you enjoyed the post, and a lo...Thank you! :-) Glad you enjoyed the post, and a lovely comment as always - such a pleasure to read :)<br /><br />It's mostly Edward's letters to his sisters from 1304/05 (when a few hundred of his letters fortuitously survive) that make me think probably Elizabeth was closest to him, from the way he addressed her. Also, they were close in age, only 20 months apart. Joan I think was extremely fond of Edward, and the 12-year age gap perhaps made it more maternal than was with the case with Elizabeth. Joan certainly leapt to her brother's aid when he quarrelled with his father in 1305, and lent him her seal so he could order goods. Such a shame that Joan died young - I do wonder if she might have been a strong influence on him if she'd lived a few years longer. Elizabeth apparently wasn't, for all their closeness, but I feel Joan was a stronger personality, and that age gap might have meant Edward listened to and took heed of her advice.<br /><br />Yes, I've since come to the conclusion that of more or less exclusively English origin for at least several centuries back, that I've found, I must be descended from Edward - which is the most amazing thought :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-78759212530299481172013-10-30T17:09:48.697+00:002013-10-30T17:09:48.697+00:00Marvelous post, Kathryn!
I, too, am a "soppy...Marvelous post, Kathryn!<br /><br />I, too, am a "soppy cow" when it comes to Edward. Though I've never been to Gloucester Cathedral, I had a remotely similar experience at Westminster Abbey when I saw the wooden throne with the Stone of Scone underneath. All I knew about Edward II at the time was that he was the first king to be crowned on it. That alone fascinated me, and of all the sights there are to see at the Abbey, it captured my interest the most. I couldn't take my eyes off of it! (If I'd known how much I would come to adore Edward, I would probably be standing there staring at it to this day!) It just made history seem so real--not merely words in a book. Hundreds of years ago, Edward actually sat on that throne!<br /><br />And now for the de Bohun family: you mentioned that Elizabeth was "arguably Edward II's favorite sister". Harold Hutchison, in his biography, "Edward II", agrees. But I've also read, though I can't recall the source, that Edward was closer to Joanna. Is that a legend that arose because two of her daughters were married to his most notorious favorites? Do letters and other evidence suggest that he was even more fond of Elizabeth, or do we believe that now because they were nearest in age? As ever, I long to know more and who better to ask than you? :-)<br /><br />Also, since I didn't see it on your list of fiction about Edward, I thought I should mention a book you might not have found yet called, "The King's Daughters" by Mollie Haycraft. It's mostly about Elizabeth, though Margaret of Brabant enters into it quite a lot. I must warn you that it's not very kind to Edward, which is no more than we can expect from the author. She's the daughter of Thomas Costain, who wrote "The Three Edwards".<br /><br />As for genealogy, I'm not sure how your research has progressed since you wrote this post, but fear not! You ARE Edward's descendent! Edward III lost a daughter to the Black Death, but the rest of his prolific progeny survived. Considering that at least one third of the populace died of the plague (in America it's often estimated at closer to half), and that most of the vast royal family lived on, it would be astounding if you WEREN'T Edward's direct descendent. (Though I'm mathematically challenged, those are numbers even I can understand.)<br /><br />There's no doubt in my mind that Edward is also my ancestor, even though I'm the lowest form of English-speaking life: a "yank" (albeit of approximately 95% British descent). The odds are with us both! I feel confident that you will trace your ancestry back to him in time. The only question is who passed the legacy down to you.mrats.marajennerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16134873369115667692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-22409880736679256032012-10-22T16:11:21.267+01:002012-10-22T16:11:21.267+01:00I don't know, Don, sorry - the Bohuns are not ...I don't know, Don, sorry - the Bohuns are not really one of my areas of expertise.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-15108540855454887502012-10-22T16:06:18.276+01:002012-10-22T16:06:18.276+01:00Did the De Bohuns have any connection with Coberle...Did the De Bohuns have any connection with Coberley, Gloucestershire?<br />I unearthed a metal <br />Heraldic Shield there believed to be of Humphrey De Bohun<br />4th Earl of Hereford<br />1276 - 1322Don Sherrattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48859438131415253182012-06-08T14:15:42.453+01:002012-06-08T14:15:42.453+01:00Thanks so much for the kind comment! I'm so g...Thanks so much for the kind comment! I'm so glad you came across my post and found it helpful. All the best!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-67628883664619123752012-06-08T13:49:58.945+01:002012-06-08T13:49:58.945+01:00Thank you for this wonderful post on the Bohun sis...Thank you for this wonderful post on the Bohun sisters. I am a huge medieval history groupie(with particular interest in the reigns of Edward II and II)and was thrilled to discover that I am descended from Edward III. However I also descend from both Margaret and Eleanor and their brother William and was thrilled to see them covered here. I don't know why, but for some reason my Bohun ancestors 'speak' more loudly to me than any others and it is so difficult to find much information on them through media that I have access to, so thanks again!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-46696057356416898132010-03-10T07:53:07.039+00:002010-03-10T07:53:07.039+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.炒米粉Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17846974192729945304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-79321534683792823742009-10-04T20:55:47.288+01:002009-10-04T20:55:47.288+01:00I am a decendent of Eleanor and Ormond. (My great...I am a decendent of Eleanor and Ormond. (My great Grand Mother was Anne Spottswood. (Lastof the british branch the rest in Usa Virginia)decendant of Govener Alexander Spottswood..) Have found it very interesting We had got mixed up and thought Elizabeth married Butler... Thanks for clearing the mystery<br /><br />Irony Alexander Spottswood was a decendent of Robert the Bruce <br />Spottswoods wife uncle was the Duke of Ormond. So a decendent of Edward 1<br />The Spottswood used to be called Spottiswoode before he Civil war..<br />Good work you have doneMichael Blakemorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-33200586103892757112009-03-29T14:36:00.000+01:002009-03-29T14:36:00.000+01:00Hi Catherine! Thank you for your very kind commen...Hi Catherine! Thank you for your very kind comments, and I'm really glad you like my site.<BR/><BR/>I'm completely convinced - to the extent that I'd stake everything I own on it - that Edward II was not murdered by red-hot poker. For various reasons that I won't go into here, or I'll end up writing an essay ;), but it makes no sense to me at all, and I'm absolutely certain that it was a vicious rumour which over time became elevated to a 'fact'. I imagine it was inspired by contemporary depictions of sodomites being punished and tortured in hell in the same or very similar ways - i.e., Edward II getting his 'just desserts' for his presumed sexual practices.<BR/><BR/>In the late 13th century, there were many manuscripts in circulation which claimed that Edmund Ironside (died 1016) was killed in more or less the same way - via a piece of iron shoved inside him while he was on the privy. And in the 15th century, Henry V's brother the duke of Gloucester was also said to have been murdered this way.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure either about Bohun's death in 1322 - it's given as such in various contemp chronicles, but as you say, could you really get a pike through the boards of a bridge and into someone's back passage?? I'm not at all sure. I hope, for Bohun's sake, that a great deal of embellishment was going on there.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for commenting, and I'd love to hear from you again soon!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-70998691230292198752009-03-29T13:46:00.000+01:002009-03-29T13:46:00.000+01:00Hi Alianore,This is an amazing site. I love the wa...Hi Alianore,<BR/><BR/>This is an amazing site. I love the way you take the facts and weave them into storylike prose. It's what I do in my head intuitively when I try to understand history, but you do it so well, and you actually DO it, (unlike me, who just thinks it).<BR/><BR/>I'm descended from Edward I through his daughter Elizabeth, which is why I was reading about her. It struck me recently as very unlikely that both her brother and her father were killed in the same horrifying way, and I remembered that I'd read that there were other people killed at that time in this way. Do you wonder whether this horrible and very unlikely way of dying may have been made up as a kind of dramatic embellishment at the time? I read in a biography of Edward II that it was unlikely he was killed in this way.<BR/><BR/>Bohun's death in this way seems even more unlikely. I doubt a person could even get a pike through the boards of a bridge, but who knows? <BR/><BR/>What think ye?<BR/><BR/>:)<BR/>CatherineCatherine Oatesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-1589565429265296942008-02-21T06:25:00.000+00:002008-02-21T06:25:00.000+00:00Hi Dennis!I'm no expert in the de Bohuns, but I kn...Hi Dennis!<BR/><BR/>I'm no expert in the de Bohuns, but I know it's impossible for Margaret to have been born in 1305. Her mother Elizabeth gave birth to a daughter Margaret, born Sept 1303 and died young, Eleanor, countess of Ormond, born in early Oct 1304, and a son Humphrey, born about 20 Oct 1305 and died 28 Oct 1305. Then a son, John, earl of Hereford, born 23 Nov 1306. Then a gap to Humphrey, earl of Hereford, born 6 Dec 1309. Sources for all these dates of birth from royal Wardrobe accounts and other contemporary documents. Elizabeth and Hereford married November 1302. There's simply no 'room' for Margaret to have been born anywhere between 1302 and 1306.<BR/><BR/>Margaret was betrothed to Hugh de Courtenay as early as 27 Sept 1314, when she was 3. This is stated in a charter of the Duchy of Lancaster:<BR/><BR/>"Indenture and articles of agreement of marriage made between Margaret, Queen of England, and Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, and Dame Elizabeth his wife, of the one party, and Sir Hugh de Courtenay of the other part, for the marriage of Hugh, son of the said Hugh, with Margaret, daughter of the said Earl and Countess. <BR/>Westminster, 27th September, 8 Edw. II [1314]."<BR/><BR/>Given that, I find it hard to believe that Margaret was married to someone else. There's a thread about the book you mention on Google groups here: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_frm/thread/a50ced04dd51df08/7b1652c9174b4ec1?hl=en&lnk=st&q=%22margaret+de+bohun%22#7b1652c9174b4ec1<BR/><BR/>Cheers, Alianore.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-50267608570466073392008-02-21T04:47:00.000+00:002008-02-21T04:47:00.000+00:00I have found several sources that state that Willi...I have found several sources that state that William and Edward the twin brothers of Margaret were born in 1311 so I think that some of the poorly researched sites have Margaret born in 1311. Most of the more accurate sites have her b-b 1311 or Born Before 1311. I believe Dr. Bone is correct as he did extensive research on this branch of the family. <BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>DennisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-57838294504783606272008-02-21T04:10:00.000+00:002008-02-21T04:10:00.000+00:00Re: My previous post about the second marriage of ...Re: My previous post about the second marriage of Margaret:<BR/><BR/>Dr Robert Gehlmann Bone's research on the family has Margaret's birth in the year of 1305 and her death in 1391. So she didn't marry Hugh when only 14 as you stated, she would have been 20 years old. Could you give me your reference as to the date of her birth?<BR/>Thanks,<BR/><BR/>Dennis B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-11319108271921912782008-02-21T03:44:00.000+00:002008-02-21T03:44:00.000+00:00A very well researched paper by Dr. Robert Bone de...A very well researched paper by Dr. Robert Bone details a marriage prior to the actual marriage to Hugh, of whom she was betrothed early in life. She married a third cousin from Scotland "Sir Richard le Bon de Bohun" as he visited them often and must have fallen in love or lust. They had one child before the marriage was annulled and most records were destroyed of this union. There are records in the Oxford library that do identify that Hugh was her second husband. So you must add one more child to that long list of children. That child was John and he was born in 1324 when Margaret was but 18 or 19. The child was raised by Sir Richard after the annulment. Her first child with Hugh was 2 years later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-34511515039252263542008-02-14T11:23:00.000+00:002008-02-14T11:23:00.000+00:00Thanks, Dylan! Glad you enjoyed the post, and it's...Thanks, Dylan! Glad you enjoyed the post, and it's always great to meet descendants of the people I write about. ;)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-10710889501283271372008-02-14T05:47:00.000+00:002008-02-14T05:47:00.000+00:00AS a desecendent of Hugh and Margaret I ahve alway...AS a desecendent of Hugh and Margaret I ahve always considered their story to be one of the more inspiring out of my ancestors...thank you for many for pieces of information on themAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-79650479494537431382007-04-19T16:50:00.000+01:002007-04-19T16:50:00.000+01:00I too have a soft spot for Edward II(even before I...I too have a soft spot for Edward II(even before I knew he is my ancestor),& I really appreciate what you are doing here. I've not seen his tomb, but it is on the agenda for my next time over. I've always felt he was much maligned, & Isabel(even though she & Mortimer are also my ancestors) actually was more the villain in the story.CBrunnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16665189935806734310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-86420771178937390402007-04-19T11:07:00.000+01:002007-04-19T11:07:00.000+01:00Yes, I can imagine it must have been - it's practi...Yes, I can imagine it must have been - it's practically your family mausoleum! :) How great to know that you're descended form all these people. Unfortunately I don't know if I'm descended from Ed II or not, but visiting his tomb at Gloucester Cathedral last year was also an emotional experience for me - because he means a lot to me, soppy cow that I am! :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-17140299532015324422007-04-18T21:33:00.000+01:002007-04-18T21:33:00.000+01:00I found out a few years back through Burke's Peera...I found out a few years back through Burke's Peerage-- it was an awesome experience! My mother comes from Edward IV & Richard III's eldest sister Anne of Exeter(hence the descent from Lionel,John & Edmund) on several lines, & from Thomas of Woodstock through the Bourchiers, also in several lines. My last trip to Westminster Abbey was very emotional, to say the least!CBrunnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16665189935806734310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-6887989969111275942007-04-18T15:43:00.000+01:002007-04-18T15:43:00.000+01:00Hi C - thank you for your kind comment! Really gl...Hi C - thank you for your kind comment! Really glad you're enjoying the site and finding it useful. It's awesome that you're descended from FOUR of Ed III's sons!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.com