tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post115884081161815811..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Edward II's Death (?)Kathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-5992627946610731252024-03-13T22:47:02.861+00:002024-03-13T22:47:02.861+00:00This is so interesting. I remember being about 13 ...This is so interesting. I remember being about 13 and reading a Jean Plaidy novel , "Isabella The Fair" . As I read the book, I became a little in love with Edward II. When I read about his murder in the book, It really affected me and couldn't stop thinking about it for quite some time. I struggled to think that men could be so evil to do this..naively I know. In my heart, I hope that he didn't endure such a horrific demise. I have enjoyed reading this blog. Thankyou.Annienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-46581791772362501742018-12-13T12:04:30.769+00:002018-12-13T12:04:30.769+00:00Thank you, Michael, appreciate it! :) Happy readin...Thank you, Michael, appreciate it! :) Happy reading and always great to meet a fellow history lover :) Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-18531759327681584192018-12-12T18:33:59.077+00:002018-12-12T18:33:59.077+00:00Oh, Indeed? Excellent π Stumbled upon your Edward...Oh, Indeed? Excellent π Stumbled upon your Edward II Blog here by happy accident. You were on first page Google results. Leastways, on King Edward II's mysterious death.. <br /><br />Thanks again, for the 'Head's up' πMy fascination with 12th-13th century English Kings, the culture of the time, their ideas on family bloodlines and the concept of Nobilty, has always interested me. Lover of History and Cultures of *most* periods, especially 9th-14th century Kingdom of England. Learning and absorbing all I "ingest". When you think you (me) know everything...keep lookin, there's always more to learn! That's what I say, anyway! π<br /><br /><br />Anyways, Keep on fighting the good fight! You're a great writer! Friendly, to boot! More people can learn more, if they're willing, by visiting this blog! If anyone ever asks *me* (they know to come to me), will send 'em this wayπ Thanks! Later...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812270993251837410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-46990597693795083812018-12-12T07:30:07.248+00:002018-12-12T07:30:07.248+00:00It's all right :) :) I've written a whole ...It's all right :) :) I've written a whole book about Edward's murder or survival actually - 'Long Live the King: The Mysterious Fate of Edward II'. :) And there are a few posts about it here, I think, and certainly about his brother the earl of Kent's plot to free him in 1330.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-41093039489949987582018-12-11T22:10:16.643+00:002018-12-11T22:10:16.643+00:00Sorry there, Kathryn π Guess I shoulda reread thi...Sorry there, Kathryn π Guess I shoulda reread this! You stated that you were going to talk of Edward's potential survival of captivity....sorry, feel like a dummy! I'm gonna look for *that* Thank you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812270993251837410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-54923033264669754512018-12-11T00:50:48.463+00:002018-12-11T00:50:48.463+00:00Hi...great read.. Edward I and his line has always...Hi...great read.. Edward I and his line has always fascinated me. His early progeny, in particular...Edward II and III, Richard II, son of Edward the Black Prince... So on and so on...<br /><br /><br />Anyway, I'm surprised you never mentioned in this blog the possibility of Edward II surviving his captivity and living on in secrecy as "William the Welshman". Edward III meeting his father in Antwerp in 1338... <br /><br />The question I'm posing is simple: What are your thoughts on *that* particular topic? I haven't yet read the comments here...it could be talked about already... I'll check, however...my question still stands... πβΊβ<br /><br />Oh, almost forgot *raises glass to Edward II, of Canaervon, 1st Prince of Wales, son of Edward, King of England.* chug chug chug ππAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812270993251837410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-13318982959228084652018-08-18T08:46:06.510+01:002018-08-18T08:46:06.510+01:00Yes, I think he was killed by the red hot poker. T...Yes, I think he was killed by the red hot poker. There is no smoke without fire, as they say. Why make up such a story in the first place? If one is going to contrive a story of Edwards's murder, why choose this manner of death. Edward was gay.Homosexuality was not tolerated in those days, and one had to exact a high price for being gay.Royalty included.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13151424683575832816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-4658915533514507952018-08-18T08:46:05.700+01:002018-08-18T08:46:05.700+01:00Yes, I think he was killed by the red hot poker. T...Yes, I think he was killed by the red hot poker. There is no smoke without fire, as they say. Why make up such a story in the first place? If one is going to contrive a story of Edwards's murder, why choose this manner of death. Edward was gay.Homosexuality was not tolerated in those days, and one had to exact a high price for being gay.Royalty included.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13151424683575832816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-61814493713014682062018-01-06T15:59:56.881+00:002018-01-06T15:59:56.881+00:00Hi Kathryn,
In my day job I'm a sculptor, rest...Hi Kathryn,<br />In my day job I'm a sculptor, restorer and conservator of historic monuments and in 2011 I was privileged to be part of the team which restored, over many months, the tomb of Edward II at Gloucester Cathedral. It was at this time that I became interested in the 'tale' of the manner of Edwards 'murder' whilst a prisoner at Berkley Castle. My interest was piqued by the several notifications of Edwards screams being heard for many (five?) miles around, and in particular that they were heard across the Severn in Wales. <br />I was reminded of an episode in the (probable 11th century) Welsh tale from the 'Mabinogion' - 'Culhwch and Olwen, and known as 'The Oldest Animals'. In this episode Arthur's men have been set the task to find the 'exalted' prisoner 'Mabon vab Modron', (Son, son of the Mother). After consulting a series of increasingly older animals who do not know where Mabon is, they are led to the Salmon of Llyn Llyw, (a river lake in the Severn Estuary near the Beachley peninsula). I write a blog 'Mabinogion Astronomy'. Here's the relevant passage, (as it were). <br /><br />It is not Gwrhyr Interpreter of Languages who addresses the Salmon of Llyn Lliw but the Eagle of Gwernabwy himself,Β the oldest animal in this world, ('and he travels the most') The Salmon of Llyn Lliw is therefore, The Wisest Animal in the World and he it is who knows the whereabouts of Mabon son of Modron. Says the Salmon:<br /><br />'As much as I know, I will tell. With each flood tide I come up along the river as far as the bend at the wall of Caerloyw, and there I found such misfortune as I have never found in my life. And so that you may believe it, let one of you come here on my two shoulders'.<br /><br />So Cai and Gwrhyr travelled on the two shoulders of the Salmon until they came to where the prisoner was and 'they could hear lamenting and groaning on the other side of the wall from them'. Gwrhyr said, 'What man is lamenting in this house of stone?' to which the answer is 'Mabon son of Modron is here in prison' and 'As much as may be got of me will be got by fighting.' So they returned to Arthur who summoned the warriors of Britain:<br /><br />'and went to Caerloyw where Mabon was in prison. Cai and Bedwyr went on the two shoulders of the fish. While Arthur's warriors were fighting at the fort, Cai broke through the wall and took the prisoner on his back...Arthur came home and Mabon with him, free.<br /><br />It is interesting that the groans of the prisoner could be heard from the Severn. Just a thought.<br />Mabinogion Astronomyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826240171892521334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-50611653882538617052017-05-03T01:17:37.740+01:002017-05-03T01:17:37.740+01:00I've always considered that IF Edwards was mur...I've always considered that IF Edwards was murdered at Berkley, (and I'm not convinced he was) the cause of death need not have been so secretive. If, as I understand, his body was covered in a cerecloth prior to its traditional embalming, then surely few could have viewed it, and certainly not examined it closely. I would suggest that given that his heart was removed, as was a custom, his body was not going to look much better than a patchwork anyway! Although, the role of the local woman who embalmed the body is interesting and frustratingly elusive!!<br />My money is on suffocation after being drugged. With any luck, he would not have suffered too much. That is of course if he DID die at Berkley..........Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816763380587288778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23048269467172827912017-04-28T07:17:04.925+01:002017-04-28T07:17:04.925+01:00James IV, his father, was killed at Flodden when V...James IV, his father, was killed at Flodden when V was very young..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-26825838216472334142015-11-23T10:35:17.967+00:002015-11-23T10:35:17.967+00:00From Wikipedia
Peine forte et dure (Law French fo...From Wikipedia<br /><br />Peine forte et dure (Law French for "hard and forceful punishment") was a method of torture formerly used in the common law legal system, in which a defendant who refused to plead ("stood mute") would be subjected to having heavier and heavier stones placed upon his or her chest until a plea was entered, or the defendant died.<br /><br />It does not take a big leap for 'Peine forte et dure' to become crushed by a door.MacKneehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07039562617515074278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-53877831719792453412015-09-21T17:46:40.744+01:002015-09-21T17:46:40.744+01:00I've just finished reading this fascinating se...I've just finished reading this fascinating series of posts on the subject of Edward II's deposition/forced abdication and subsequent 'death'. The tomb in Gloucester Cathedral is beautiful and well-worth a visit. During building repairs in the 19th century, the king's tomb was exposed for a short time. It consisted of a kind of lead envelope which resembled a tent. It was completely intact and no attempt was made to open it. There are contemporary accounts of Edward II's body lying in state with the face exposed. Nevertheless, chroniclers were careful to note that no-one was permitted to approach the corpse and viewers were kept at a considerable distance. <br /><br />A particular point of interest is the reply made by Pope John XXII to the letter from Mortimer and Isabella informing him of Edward's death. It is a masterpiece of irony and heavily implied doubt. According to the famous Fieschi Letter, Edward II escaped and made his way to Avignon where he had an audience with Pope John. He was then, it is said, blessed, provided with money and sent to a refuge in Italy.<br /><br />Mortimer and Queen Isabella were, of course, both arrested in Nottingham Castle and Mortimer was put on trial soon afterwards. Throughout this judicial 'hearing', he was bound and gagged to prevent his either struggling or, more importantly, speaking. Execution followed - but strangely enough his son was allowed to inherit his earldom of March without difficulty. There were rumours at the time that Queen Isabella was pregnant by Mortimer and that her immediate confinement (not imprisonment) was imperative to Edward III. She lived on for another twenty-eight years after Mortimer's death, mostly at Castle Rising. This was not a prison, but it was situated at a distance from Edward III's court. She did make ceremonial appearances from time to time and the king was always at pains to seem to be on good terms with his mother.Malcolm Beddardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-1587971686771326442014-09-08T04:47:49.421+01:002014-09-08T04:47:49.421+01:00I am not saying I agree with this perspective, but...I am not saying I agree with this perspective, but it is an interesting argument. The post is older yet still worth the read: <br /><br /><a href="http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/a-red-hot-poker-it-was-just-a-red-herring/176011.article" rel="nofollow">a red hot poker it was just a red herring</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-10698780156870760592014-09-02T18:33:40.321+01:002014-09-02T18:33:40.321+01:00Interesting stuff. I'm surprised at Winston Ch...Interesting stuff. I'm surprised at Winston Churchill's retelling of this tale with no scepticism whatsoever. Vide vol.1 of "A History of the English Speaking Peoples". <br />One would expect more circumspection from a historian of that calibre :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-17287888101223676672014-02-09T00:11:45.686+00:002014-02-09T00:11:45.686+00:00Spectacle scripts go a long way and are very hard ...Spectacle scripts go a long way and are very hard to crack.<br />Re:Biblical storyteller's horror portraits of personages such as Queen Jezebel and Queen 'Athalyyah took millenniae in getting to be dismantled for the politicking slander that they in fact are...YIGEALnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-19047369264167353892014-01-30T02:13:08.623+00:002014-01-30T02:13:08.623+00:00These were times in which homosexuality was frowne...These were times in which homosexuality was frowned upon, so what better way to besmirch somebody's name, than to label them homosexual. Edward's death would have been seen as " just desserts" for those people living in England at that time. It was probably a clever piece of 14th century propaganda, put about for the above reason. It was widely known that he was homosexual, so what better than invent a suitably gruesome story to befit his demise. These were the days of the story-teller. He was probably poisoned or even drugged then suffocated.david brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-45745739924099569952013-10-14T05:45:09.169+01:002013-10-14T05:45:09.169+01:00You really are pretty clueless, aren't you? I...You really are pretty clueless, aren't you? I've written countless posts about what became of Ockley, Maltravers, Gurney and Berkeley, and by the way, there's no such thing as the Fine Rolls 1327-1330 - they run 1327 to 1337 - and why on earth would you expect to find Edward III's attempts to find these men in there, when he was still under the regency of Mortimer and Isabella?<br /><br />Not that I'd expect anything better from a person who uses the word 'butt pirate', of course.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-88234984040235167432013-10-14T04:30:02.473+01:002013-10-14T04:30:02.473+01:00Don't be so naive folks ... !!!
How would Mor...Don't be so naive folks ... !!!<br /><br />How would Mortimer not take particular glee in giving it to Eddie II in the "end" ... !<br /><br />If Mortimer & Isabella casually ate dinner while attending Despenser's execution mutilation, it likely is not much of a stretch to consider Eddie's "backdoor" mutilation a fitting "end" to this "butt pirate's" ignominious reign.<br /><br />He would die quickly from this impalement depending on the length of the rod.<br /><br />Ockley, Gurney and Maltravers were Roger Mortimer's henchmen from the Welsh Marches. <br /><br />According to the Calendar of Fines Edward III (1327β1330) held at Winchester records office, Edward III made every effort to track down his father's killers, William Ockley (not Ogle), Sir Thomas Gurney, and Sir John Maltravers, but they fled the country.phattybuoynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-16314635305835702502013-06-04T16:16:46.585+01:002013-06-04T16:16:46.585+01:00Are you people mice or prudes?
Red-hot-poker, now...Are you people mice or prudes?<br /><br />Red-hot-poker, now I know this is difficult for some people to figure out how he could have died quickly, but here's a thought; how long was the poker? Doh!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09548250078864492814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-41663112676065585902013-05-13T20:57:38.228+01:002013-05-13T20:57:38.228+01:00Fascinating stuff.
I've never been inclined t...Fascinating stuff.<br /><br />I've never been inclined to accept the rather melodramatic account of the red hot poker method of dispatch in Ed II's death. This piece has made me reconsider (well, a wee bit), and given me a couple of thoughts. <br /><br />"Baker hated Queen Isabella (the 'iron virago') and was constructing a narrative of 'Edward as martyr'." Constructing a <i>narrative of martyrdom</i>, on a version of events that a) is suggestive of the rumours of the victim's indulgence in the sin of sodomy; b) Reminds the listener of the cause for complaint the hated 'iron virago' had as a wronged wife (his preference for 'unnatural' acts), seems a little odd. Unless Baker is constructing his narrative around what he believed was a core of truth.<br /><br />When they refer to a table as being used to hold him down, it would of course have been the table top, or detachable flat <i>board</i> (as in the origin of the phrase <i>bed and board</i>), that would have been used, not anything with legs attached. Very similar to a door in structure and effectiveness, but easier to lift off and use quickly (no hinges).<br /><br />How likely impaling was a method of killing then is a good question. But bear in mind that his assassins would have been far more familiar with internal human and animal anatomy than us, with spitting animals, and with the use of hot irons for purposes of branding and cauterising (and possibly inflicting torture/ punishment). I'm not sure they would have seen killing him that way problematic, or had much doubt as to its practice. If as described they used a drenching horn to prevent any external signs of penetration, inserting the iron fairly deep would probably cause extensive internal damage and bleeding, which would have killed him within hours, if not quicker. There would have been no need to wait days, for peritonitis to set in. It would have been essentially a way of stabbing him to death, without leaving any visible stab wounds - with the added 'refinement' of the heated iron maximising internal damage and cauterising anal bleeding. And maybe just for sheer judgemental/ self justifying sadism, anticipating the diabolic 'punishment' that awaited him in hell for his 'sinful' proclivities.<br /><br />James V's death; Antonia Fraser suggests it was caused by porphyria. She ascribes George III's symptoms to this disease, and traces it back through the Stuart line. Mary QoS apparently exhibited a very similar pattern of psychological collapse to her father, during episodes of great stress (stress is an established cause of porphyriac attacks). In her case the attacks weren't fatal.<br /><br />Fraser concludes that the origins of the disorder in the Stuarts probably go back to into their Scottish ancestry. I'm not sure it can't be traced from the French royal family, and may have entered the Tudor/ Stuart line though Catherine de Valois. Several of the Tudor's medical histories make interesting reading, with porphyria in mind. And features of the illness/ madness of Catherine's son (Henry VI), and father (Charles VI), are strikingly similar to George III's.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03941023738543484103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-1434749479931042012-08-21T04:42:54.022+01:002012-08-21T04:42:54.022+01:00Firstly, Edward II fathered four children by his q...Firstly, Edward II fathered four children by his queen and was succeeded by his fourteen-year-old eldest son, so certainly was not threatening his dynasty. Secondly, almost all contemporary chroniclers comment on his enormous strength; one of them calls him 'one of the strongest men of his realm'. Thirdly, he was sent to Berkeley Castle on 3 April 1327 and allegedly died there on 21 September, so it wasn't years, and the idea that he was mistreated there has been debunked (it's a later invention disproved by Berkeley Castle accounts).Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-74194864552077086242012-08-21T04:16:49.704+01:002012-08-21T04:16:49.704+01:00In recounting "sad tales of the death of king...In recounting "sad tales of the death of kings," especially the gay ones (which after all could threaten the orderly succession of a dynasty), don't forget William Rufus, the victim of "an unfortunate hunting accident."<br /><br />Re: "Ed:" the portraits and tomb effigy do not suggest a strong, robust man, and he had been imprisoned for several years (?) by the time of his death. He was not an effective warrior, and he much preferred music and costume to alarums and battles. <br /><br />I should think a door would break some ribs and leave bruises, but these were not found in the body.<br /><br />Impalement was a favorite method of ghastly death among the Turks and adopted by Vlad the Impaler (aka Dracula). I've never heard of its use in Western Europe, but that's not to say it's impossible. Might a red-hot poker be enough of a shock to the system of a weak and broken man to kill him quickly? (Just a suggestion; I've no experience with such things personally.)Robert Copelandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-72882391740888664592012-07-08T22:21:42.742+01:002012-07-08T22:21:42.742+01:00Never watch history programmes on television. Badl...Never watch history programmes on television. Badly researched, trite, superficial, and with a constant flickering between the presenter's face and actors clumping through little dramatic scenes.<br />I have always been determined that Edward did not die that horrible death. It was easy to build a strong case against it, and I am pleased that others have done the same.<br />In Berkeley Castle, there is a small room with a window on an outside wall, in which Edward was believed to have been killed. Not my choice for a secret murder, especially one which is likely to cause some screaming. One account states that he was held down by a table, another by cushions. I don't know from where the fifteen men came; I thought that it was two or three. A door wouldn't have been very effective because of its tendency to roll with the body. And don't forget a man on each leg because there would surely have been some mule-like kicking. It wouldn't surprise me if something had been done after his death by the nasty people who carried out the deed. As has been mentioned, contrary to the homophobic persistence in portraying him as feeble and effeminate, Edward was very strong. But people don't like to abandon their comforting stereotypes. The best historians still prefer to avoid Richard I's homosexuality.John Guthrienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-22345584864120743412012-05-07T20:59:29.117+01:002012-05-07T20:59:29.117+01:00I agree that the story of Edward II's `poker&#...I agree that the story of Edward II's `poker' death and Despenser's sexual mutilation are little more than gossip. <br /><br />The problem with medieval history is that much of what we `know' is based on the witterings of monks writing about events which allegedly took place decades, or sometimes a century or so in the past. If we imagine five newspapers and fewer than 50 writers describing the key evenst of WWI, that sums up the value of medieval narrative evidence.<br /><br />Many chroniclers were PR people for whichever bunch of aristocratic gangsters, and their brutal friends in the Church, who were in charge of England at the time of the `chronicle' being written.<br /><br />I've just watched a BBC4 documentary where the same old `horrid histories' fairy story about Edward II was trotted out yet again. Very disappointing, the past deserves more respect and intelligent assessment than that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00634752603381150865noreply@blogger.com