tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5485297018914078500..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: The Amatory Adventures of John de WarenneKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-40432301250415019462014-03-04T13:11:01.735+00:002014-03-04T13:11:01.735+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-21202875991637980152014-03-04T13:10:59.423+00:002014-03-04T13:10:59.423+00:00Hi Pamela, thank you - glad you like the blog! :-)...Hi Pamela, thank you - glad you like the blog! :-) I've written again in more detail about John's illegitimate children, not sure if you saw the post: edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/2009/09/illegitimate-children-of-john-de.html I think though I only got Cecily de Eton off the internet, not primary sources, unfortunately. Hope the other post helps you a bit; I added all the sources at the end. Good luck with your research! :-)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-83723252484024512882014-03-02T22:11:52.957+00:002014-03-02T22:11:52.957+00:00Hi Kathryn:
I have a question. I am a descendant o...Hi Kathryn:<br />I have a question. I am a descendant of John de Warenne and I have been working on the genealogy of this complex family. One of the walls I've hit is that you state that his son Edward was married to Cecily de Eton. Another source I have found, in John Parson's Earwaker's book "East Chesire: Past and Present: Or a History of the Hundred of Macclesfield, Volume I page 343, his genealogy shows Cecily de Eton married to John's son William, not Edward. Then you state that William's wife is not named in Johns will (darn!)and state Edward is left a sum in the will but not if Cecily is definitely identified as his wife. Can you help with this regading another resource for this information? I would really like to try to get John's line as correct as it can be, which at best will be difficult! Thanks and I LOVE your blog?pamelajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18088994304907530862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-15002048815336908112011-06-08T18:01:57.330+01:002011-06-08T18:01:57.330+01:00Fascinating history. I need to diagram the genera...Fascinating history. I need to diagram the generations to get it entirely clear. But I do call dibs on writing the Ravelyn novel. LOL These are, after all, my ancestors! (not sure that is a recommendation)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995877160240974606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-51157293239646780062010-04-25T16:14:41.277+01:002010-04-25T16:14:41.277+01:00I am so glad you agree with my opinion of Warenne....I am so glad you agree with my opinion of Warenne. In fact both he and Roger Mortimer must have had a great allure about them to attract such high born women.<br />Another strange bit of info re: Warenne- I did come across a legend regarding John de Warenne, that he slew the last dragon in Wales!!!<br />Make of that what you will!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-5757639558666967622010-04-21T11:51:01.205+01:002010-04-21T11:51:01.205+01:00Hi! I'm honestly baffled by Weir's descri...Hi! I'm honestly baffled by Weir's description of John as nasty and brutish. I can't think of a chronicle that calls him anything like that (and Weir doesn't cite a source), nor is there anything in his behaviour that seems to justify that description. OK, he was a long-term adulterer, but so was John of Gaunt, and Weir was perfectly happy to write a biography of Gaunt's mistress!<br /><br />I'm very fond of John, actually; he did the right thing by his illegitimate children and was obviously very fond of them (I have another post about his children, if you haven't seen it) and was mostly loyal to Edward II and Edward III. For a woman like Isabel Holland, who could have made a pretty decent marriage, to give that up to live as his mistress suggests to me that he had charm and lovable qualities. His will paints an attractive picture of him too, leaving gifts to servants and to Isabel and her family.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-51267444282764255372010-04-21T11:34:00.306+01:002010-04-21T11:34:00.306+01:00In Alison Weir's book, 'Isabella', she...In Alison Weir's book, 'Isabella', she refers to John de Warenne as a somewhat surely and brutish character. However, from what I have read both on your blog and from other sources that is not the impressions that come across to me!<br />Why would Alice Lacy seek his help if he was such an unsavoury character. Yes, he was her husband's enemy but nevertheless she came from a powerful and wealthy family so why choose Warenne?<br />The other fact is the women who defied both the church and their families to live with him as his mistress. There must have been something attractive about him!!<br />Love to hear you opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-6670508064500722572009-02-18T12:26:00.000+00:002009-02-18T12:26:00.000+00:00Thanks for the info, Helen! I'd missed the ref to...Thanks for the info, Helen! I'd missed the ref to them in 1303, and of course you're right - they couldn't possibly have been the sons of John (d. 1347). I suppose they were John the elder's illegit sons, and probably born when John was in his fifties or thereabouts (1280s?), as they were still alive in 1346.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-11372108521267351422009-02-18T11:47:00.000+00:002009-02-18T11:47:00.000+00:00I think the Masters John and William de Warenne yo...I think the Masters John and William de Warenne you mention in respect of a papal petition by Edward II were in fact the sons of the previous Earl John de Warenne (d.1304), and were thus the uncles, not sons of the last earl. See Register of Archbishop Winchelsea vol I pp. 646-7: Letter of Archbishop Winchelsea to Boniface VIII on behalf of John and his brother William, Masters of Arts, illegitimate sons of Earl John de Warenne: the Pope has given dispensation for them to take orders and hold benefices with cure of souls. The Archbishop asks for further favours on account of their virtuous lives. This was in 1303, when the younger John would only have been 17 and could not possibly have been the father of children old enough to be Masters of Arts. Emden's BRUO is confused on this point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-47727696784064419342007-04-10T18:48:00.000+01:002007-04-10T18:48:00.000+01:00I'd really love to write a story about this - to e...I'd really love to write a story about this - to explore Jeanne's feelings, why she wanted to stay married to John (or so it seems).Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-71967660733575904702007-04-10T09:47:00.000+01:002007-04-10T09:47:00.000+01:00It's interesting, isn't it? I was reminded of Kat...It's interesting, isn't it? I was reminded of Katherine of Aragon reading the post. The pragmatic line would surely be something like, "Okay, husband, if you want a divorce we'll start the bidding at £10,000 a year for life plus half of Buckinghamshire...." - which the husband in question could afford and which would give the (ex) wife independence, freedom and the wealth to enjoy it. Clearly there was something much more important than pragmatism going on.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-40177093620147451662007-04-08T12:11:00.000+01:002007-04-08T12:11:00.000+01:00Interesting point, Carla - I wonder why Jeanne wan...Interesting point, Carla - I wonder why Jeanne wanted to stay married, given that John was so desperate to 'get rid of' her. Perhaps she would have been happier with another man, and had children too. And John certainly had vast lands, so could have made her a generous offer.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-46337451261448885282007-04-08T10:22:00.000+01:002007-04-08T10:22:00.000+01:00What a fascinating story. It would make a great s...What a fascinating story. It would make a great starting point for a novel. I wonder if John tried bribery - if he was so eager to be out of the marriage one wonders if he tried offering Jeanne a very substantial property settlement, which would then have left her wealthy and free to look around for a better match.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23314150526436133942007-04-07T07:55:00.000+01:002007-04-07T07:55:00.000+01:00Thank you, Kate! It would make a great novel, I t...Thank you, Kate! It would make a great novel, I think. I do feel sorry for poor Jeanne, though.<BR/><BR/>For me, history is about <I>people</I> - they fascinate me. Too often, that gets forgotten in the study of history - it can be very dry.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-16128060512960877952007-04-07T00:08:00.000+01:002007-04-07T00:08:00.000+01:00Great post! Great stories! History is brought al...Great post! Great stories! History is brought alive when we are reminded that they were human. I think John de Warenne's story could be placed into a modern time easily, or even part of a Jane Austen novel - apart from the illegitimate children that is! Wonderful stuff. True stories are just as fascinating as fiction. You really brought him to life. ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-77174902734604241572007-04-06T18:02:00.000+01:002007-04-06T18:02:00.000+01:00And Ravelyn can be made so nicely into "Raven" . ....And Ravelyn can be made so nicely into "Raven" . . .Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-49526124135991061772007-04-06T16:48:00.000+01:002007-04-06T16:48:00.000+01:00Thanks Liam - glad you liked the post. Yes, writi...Thanks Liam - glad you liked the post. Yes, writing it did take a fair bit of research, to put it mildly, but I thoroughly enjoyed it! :)<BR/><BR/>I think Ravelyn is a pretty sexy name...;) I'd definitely read a romance with a 'Ravelyn' as the hero!<BR/><BR/>Not sure about Ed's feelings for his niece Jeanne, really - I don't think they were ever particularly close (not like he was to his niece Eleanor de Clare, for instance) and she followed Isabella after 1325, like her cousin Elizabeth de Clare. For most of his reign, Ed needed all the support from his nobles that he could get, and I think that's a far more likely reason for his trying to help John.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-31032742269695373702007-04-06T14:46:00.000+01:002007-04-06T14:46:00.000+01:00Great post Alianore, and I know it was a labour of...Great post Alianore, and I know it was a labour of love! ;)<BR/><BR/>I was going to mention the 'marital affection' thing too! Odd for the clergy to come out on the woman's side, for once!<BR/><BR/>About the wikipedia article - funny that it's hopeless inaccurate, but the down side is, lots of people think everything they read there is fact!<BR/><BR/>The name Ravelyn has great potential - I can see him in a novel along side such other improbably named heroes as 'Lynx' and 'Wolf'!<BR/><BR/>By the by, were Edward II's efforts to prevent John and Jeanne's divorce completely political, or due to some kind of family affection for Jeanne? Surely highly unlikely, if she was a close friend of Queen Isabella!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03188874002836550379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-6847442594415149172007-04-06T06:10:00.000+01:002007-04-06T06:10:00.000+01:00Gabriele - I know, it's such a wonderfully ambiguo...Gabriele - I know, it's such a wonderfully ambiguous phrase, isn't it??<BR/><BR/>This site is interesting: http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/medevl1.html <BR/>(can't get the hyperlink to work)<BR/>...if you scroll down to number 14, there's more on the concept of <I>affectio maritalis</I> in the Middle Ages. AFAIK, it just meant a willingness to be married and to treat your spouse decently - and canonists privileged it over 'love', which included the element of sexual desire - shock horror! :)<BR/><BR/>And number 16 is also fascinating - all the conditions under which intercourse was forbidden! :)<BR/><BR/>Susan: great idea! BTW, did you see that two of the younger Despenser's squires in 1325 were called Ravlyn Tyssington and Janekyn de Sufford? Love them!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-41794908534731775332007-04-06T06:08:00.000+01:002007-04-06T06:08:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-45664083006964054522007-04-06T06:00:00.000+01:002007-04-06T06:00:00.000+01:00What a busy boy John was! Ravelyn--with that name,...What a busy boy John was! Ravelyn--with that name, someone really needs to write a historical romance about him.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-18379063950433374372007-04-06T03:38:00.000+01:002007-04-06T03:38:00.000+01:00Pope Clement VI commanded him to treat his wife wi...<I>Pope Clement VI commanded him to treat his wife with 'marital affection' and absolved him of any sin he may have committed with his wife's aunt. John must have wondered what else he had to do to get a divorce</I>.<BR/><BR/>The 'marital affection' had me giggle. What does that mean exactly? Not beat his wife, make sure she has an orgasm during sex, play with the kids and put his socks in the dirty laundry box? <BR/><BR/>What else he had to do? I suppose short of putting some funny mushroom in her food there was no way. Paul McCartney will be glad he lives in the 21st century. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.com