tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post5617797477764210500..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: The Support Group For People Unfairly Maligned In Historical FictionKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-23278591087311139312017-03-11T15:51:51.041+00:002017-03-11T15:51:51.041+00:00I personally find it amusing that historians and n...I personally find it amusing that historians and non-fiction authors who suggest Richard III might have harboured any ambitions to marry his neice, or had any romantic attraction to her are attacked. Yet its perfectly OK for novelists to depict him having incestuoous sexual relationships with one or more of said nieces, who are inevitably depicted as madly in love with him, and even getting preganant my him. As long as its love, it fine apparently. Joannahttp://historyladysite.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-2851104863082066092017-03-11T15:48:40.753+00:002017-03-11T15:48:40.753+00:00I like Margaret of Anjou's perspective in this...I like Margaret of Anjou's perspective in this. She's a Lady I have a lot of sympathy for, and a fair degree of admiratation. What's your view of the oft repeated 'proof' of her son's illegitimacy which is that passage in a Chronicle in which Henny is meant to have said he was 'concieved of the Holy Spirit'. <br /><br />Its nonsense in my opinion. From what I've read, it comes from a Pro-Yorkist Chronicle (was it Croyland?), written years after his birth, but a person who was not there. Its just gossip, nothing more. In fact, such a statement would be quite shockingly blasphemous to Medieval sensibilities, especially coming from a famously pious King like Henry VI. <br /><br />Other, more believable contemporary sources from those close to the royal household suggest Henry knew about Margaret's pregnancy before his descent into madness, and was happy about it. No indication that he thought the child was not his at all, which makes sense, as there is no evidence he was not capable of fathering a child or had not consummated his marriage. <br /><br />I could suggest a few additions to this list: including Margaret Beaufort and Ethelred, Lord of the Mercians, son in law of Alfred the Great. Joannahttp://historyladysite.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-4586212705292700692016-02-17T12:51:04.110+00:002016-02-17T12:51:04.110+00:00You and Rachel are a fine human beings for having ...You and Rachel are a fine human beings for having written this. All be to the glory of Kathryn and Rachel!Atlin Merricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-87130554527319472016-01-06T03:29:03.262+00:002016-01-06T03:29:03.262+00:00I laughed out loud in the office! (Blush.) I'...I laughed out loud in the office! (Blush.) I'm not too familiar with medieval Europe, but I did just read Desmond Seward's Demon's Brood, so at least I had a clue (I would love to hear your take on Seward, by the way).<br /><br />Think what you could do if you expanded this support group to include people from ancient history (my field). Cleopatra VII would offer a few pithy comments, I'm sure! And Queen Hatshepsut, who even in supposedly serious non-fiction gets accused of being vain, greedy and incompetent (she built and renovated a lot of temples--which Egyptian rulers were supposed to do). Oddly enough, the very same writers approve of such activity when it was carried on by her nephew, Thutmose III. In one non-fiction effort, she is supposed to be the mother of a young man called Maiherpri, who died at least a couple of generations later. So that would mean she a) had the baby when no one was looking and b) had a child long after menopause--actually, some time after her death! Certainly, however, this feat does not rank with that attributed to Queen Elizabeth I above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-7006131111058311842016-01-04T01:00:53.518+00:002016-01-04T01:00:53.518+00:00Anne Beauchamp and John Neville her brother-in-law...Anne Beauchamp and John Neville her brother-in-law (and according to one novel, lover) have told me they want to be invited to the party.<br /><br />I love this website!!!Karennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-79851930053687604722015-09-08T16:40:53.713+01:002015-09-08T16:40:53.713+01:00Soooooo funny and true:) Read some of those novels...Soooooo funny and true:) Read some of those novels......Well, the less shocking ones...Ariadnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48625738492231856212014-09-18T11:17:35.996+01:002014-09-18T11:17:35.996+01:00This is so funny and interesting. Kathryn, thank y...This is so funny and interesting. Kathryn, thank you very much on this, and also you, Rachel! And Kathryn, thanks on your marvelous book!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-30093860055216709422014-08-22T05:56:04.796+01:002014-08-22T05:56:04.796+01:00Funny and well written. I'm glad I stick to r...Funny and well written. I'm glad I stick to reading fantasy/Sci-fi where authors have carte blanche to write whatever they want.Branwen Frostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-38835307250889262382014-07-28T05:05:55.895+01:002014-07-28T05:05:55.895+01:00That is too funny and, as my British colleagues sa...That is too funny and, as my British colleagues say, 'spot on'. I loved the 'Basic Research' comment - LOL!<br /><br />Robert the Bruce would like to convene a meeting for all those maligned in the movie, "Braveheart'...especially as we seem to have a whole generation of kids whose idea of 'Basic Research' is Wikipedia and Netflix...yikes...Chris Kleinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-63022468759486122332014-05-23T14:53:04.743+01:002014-05-23T14:53:04.743+01:00You're welcome, and no problem! :) Maybe you c...You're welcome, and no problem! :) Maybe you could write a 'Part 2' sometime in the distant future? Also, the "back-slapping self-congratulatory group for men lauded to the heavens in crappy romance novels" seems like a good idea to me, as the other commenters think as well.<br />Same as you -- at first I really enjoyed and was eager to read historical fiction, since I really loved history with a dash of entertainment and some liberties taken, but as time went on and I looked into more of the atrocities committed by historical fiction writers, I'm a bit warier these days and I can be rather picky about what I choose to read and like now, though I still retain my obsession with history. In contrast with many people's beliefs, I think of historical fiction as mostly semi-fiction as they are dramatizing real-life events and occasionally take liberties when it suits them, so I believe the authors have a duty to be more or less historically accurate and balance it with humanly fleshed-out characters, a well-written plot, a good eye for details, and giving the readers a good 'feel' of how the times were like back then.<br />Ooh, thank you! :) I see my blog now in your blogroll, I really appreciate it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-91717216155374819552014-05-22T12:24:26.473+01:002014-05-22T12:24:26.473+01:00Hello, and thank you for the great comment! Reall...Hello, and thank you for the great comment! Really glad you liked the post. As it's several years now since we wrote it, I'm sure there are quite a lot of updates that could made on behalf of disgruntled historical people who've been maligned! Henry VII would be a great one. I have to admit I've more or less given up on histfict these days, with a handful of exceptions. Can barely stand it any more. :/<br /><br />Best of luck with your excellent site! I'll link to it here.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-47921598250598274832014-05-22T07:37:54.068+01:002014-05-22T07:37:54.068+01:00Gotta love this though it's a parody that IMO ...Gotta love this though it's a parody that IMO succeeds in being humorous and making me laugh -- well-researched, accurate, and you're definitely not making up stories that the many mistreatments of these fascinating, complex, and very human historical figures in the popular genre of historical fiction that has had the misfortune to be trashed with so many 'crappy' novels in recent times that it is now practically indistinguishable from other genres of fiction, with bad writing, flat and two-dimensional characterizations, poorly-written plotlines, and numerous anachronisms and inaccuracies. *winces*<br />I guess you can include Philippa Gregory's other flop portrayals of people like Henry VII, whom she characterized as an unkingly, cowardly, ruthless, insecure, and arrogant man with the mindset of 'women are chattel' and is easily manipulated by his cold and ambitious mother Margaret Beaufort whom he totally allows to run the court and overshadow his wife Elizabeth of York at every turn. Margaret also has Henry repeatedly rape her both before and during their marriage, with the former being that he will test her fertility (but the logic [which is that he should impregnate her before marrying her and crowning her so he will know that she is the perfect 'broodmare' that will secure the future of his lineage and dynasty with many children] is so eyebrow-raising because plenty of royal and noble women were married for years before going on to have a slew of children, like Empress Matilda, Adeliza of Louvain, Eleanor of Aquitaine, and Catherine de' Medici, and Henry was surely smart and pragmatic enough to know that even if he repeatedly had sex with Elizabeth before their marriage to get her with child, her body wouldn't necessarily react in the way he wanted, or heck even with Elizabeth's younger sister Cecily). It's like Gregory expects us to believe that Margaret, who vehemently pleaded for her granddaughter also named Margaret and agreed with Elizabeth that Henry shouldn't send the younger Margaret so soon while she was still in her early teens to her betrothed the King of Scotland for fear that she would suffer the same thing as Margaret the elder did in her marriage to Edmund Tudor -- rape/pregnancy and childbirth at such an early age that her body would never possibly heal from the damage with more than a good possibility that Margaret the younger would die in childbirth, would condone the rape and abuse of her daughter-in-law with whom she had spent some time with prior to Henry becoming king and might have developed a cordial and respectful relationship with her! >_<<br />Elizabeth is also sapped of her strength of character and in the first many chapters or so, she spends a lot of time mooning over her dead lover Richard III who was buried in an unmarked grave and recalling all her memories with him, which includes sex scenes. She is also definitely not genuinely likable, and has little to no trace of her historical self in which she appears to be noble, kind, gentle, pious, a good diplomat, and devoted, caring wife. I try my best not to judge medieval marriages and 'romances' by the standards of modern 21st century ideas and perceptions of love, but I just couldn't help myself when Elizabeth realized she 'loved' Henry even after all the times he raped and abused her in the book! *headdesks* Are we supposed to buy into this or is it supposed to mean that Elizabeth now has Stockholm's Syndrome?<br />Anyway, I overall liked your post and hope you'll keep writing more of this in the future! :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-88210602008881176772013-10-22T06:35:18.389+01:002013-10-22T06:35:18.389+01:00Looking for information about Alice de Toeni (was ...Looking for information about Alice de Toeni (was she born c.1254 or c.1284; was she married to William de Beauchamp, 9th Earl of Warwick, or Guy de Beauchamp, 10th Earl of Warwick...), I discovered your wonderful blog.<br /><br />I am not a trained historian (my degree is in Classics), but I know enough about it to be deeply offended by the kinds of things you so justly deride. I especially liked the commandments for writing historical fiction, and this support group! I wasn't rolling on the floor, at my age, but I did laugh and laugh... I like stories set in historical periods, if they are reasonably accurate, but I avoid "historical" fiction with real people as main characters, so several of the allegations were new to me.<br /><br />Three things occurred to me while reading:<br /><br />I was reminded of something Margery Allingham had a character say: "Things aren't necessarily true because they've been written down for two hundred years." If she were writing today, it might be "on the internet".<br /><br />Much of what people think they know about history, especially Medieval England, comes from the Shakespeare plays. Perhaps Will thought they were historically accurate, but I doubt if he cared much. He was a playwright who needed to sell tickets, and audiences like stuff that agrees with their ideas. I can forgive him because he wrote plays that are brilliant onstage and on the page, but they would have been just as brilliant with fictional rather than historical characters.<br /><br />Apropos the "Anachronistic ..." list in one of Trish Wilson's comments on the "Commandments": "don't assume that the people you are writing about saw the world the same way you and your contemporaries do". Dynastic marriage is a good example: nobody nobody nobody expected them to be love matches--they were about consolidating power, property, and prestige, and handing them on to your children.<br />Alice Tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-83254543817179425142013-08-05T00:10:19.532+01:002013-08-05T00:10:19.532+01:00I loved it! Thank you for including William Hastin...I loved it! Thank you for including William Hastings! And for the comments about "certain authors"- made my day!<br />May I suggest another person for whom recent history has gone back and forth? It's true to my form, of course, but I have to put him in here: Sir Roland de Veleville. Spends the better part of 400 years as the illegitimate son of Henry VII, then a paper is published in 1967 and suddenly his parentage comes into question! And even though that paper has now been widely discredited, it still has left this whole thing into question, and the ability to say that "if in his lifetime it was accepted, who are we to say it was wrong" is now not a valid option, instead requiring hours of arguments and document debating to even be brought up!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10323830257321971347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-44054189779318212162012-09-24T05:24:33.298+01:002012-09-24T05:24:33.298+01:00Thank you! :):)Thank you! :):)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-62150582615539021692012-09-23T19:34:59.588+01:002012-09-23T19:34:59.588+01:00Absolutely Fabulous!
I do hope there will be anot...Absolutely Fabulous!<br /><br />I do hope there will be another meeting . . . <br /><br />Lady Dominonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-14258935876356996092012-03-20T03:55:54.827+00:002012-03-20T03:55:54.827+00:00Amongst his other accomplishments he was thrown ou...Amongst his other accomplishments he was thrown out of the Sarah Palin fan club for being too stupid...<br /><br />That takes some doing.JJFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11948014831964413383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-55628336281703055102012-03-18T15:00:46.679+00:002012-03-18T15:00:46.679+00:00Hi John! I didn't write that part, but yes, I...Hi John! I didn't write that part, but yes, I'm sure that was who was I meant. :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-63956339801512418122012-03-18T13:34:35.217+00:002012-03-18T13:34:35.217+00:00Very late to the party via Brian's blog, but.....Very late to the party via Brian's blog, but...<br /><br />Is the writer giving poor old Elizabeth I 6 children Paul F. Streitz?<br /><br />I'm a founding member of the "Paul F. Streitz is an Imbecile" society. Just curious.JJFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11948014831964413383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-49976574761602352912011-02-20T07:23:47.847+00:002011-02-20T07:23:47.847+00:00Thanks so much, Florence! :-) Really glad you li...Thanks so much, Florence! :-) Really glad you liked it - and yes, I couldn't agree more that Edward and Piers are really rrrrroohhhhrrrrrr. :-))Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82368339855231533572011-02-19T23:46:26.456+00:002011-02-19T23:46:26.456+00:00Hi!
Thank you for the post!
I laughed a lot and ...Hi!<br /><br />Thank you for the post!<br /><br />I laughed a lot and I found the jalousy (?) of Edward with Piers extremely adorable and just "raaaaaaaaaaw" *o*<br />So romantic!!!! *o* (yes! Men loving men is the good! -to change of stereotypes from "historical" novels Lol)<br /><br />FlorenceFlorencenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-82935759829687835192009-10-17T17:19:13.910+01:002009-10-17T17:19:13.910+01:00Thanks to everyone for the comments from me too, a...Thanks to everyone for the comments from me too, and some great additions to the group! I can't claim total credit for the Pimp Daddy thing; it came about when I was looking at the IMDb forum for either TOBG (ick) or The Tudors, probably the former (yes, I have a Tudor bias, particularly for AB). One of the posters had accepted the fictional portrayal as fact and was talking about how awful Anne was to her poor long suffering saintly sister, the extremely virtuous Stepford Wife who was not at all a good time girl Mary Boleyn, who is now the epitome of a feminist icon, and as for the way "Pimp Daddy Boleyn" pushed them into the king's bed ... Anyway, I decided to co-opt "Pimp Daddy Boleyn." I feel a bit sorry for Thomas, you'd think authors would at least give him a pimp cane if they're going down the Pimp Daddy track but NO.<br /><br />After reading Leanda de Lisle's bio of the three Grey sisters, "Sisters who would be Queen" I think Lady Jane Grey's mother Frances might want to join the group - she must be well and truly sick of being cast as Evil Mummy Dearest (de Lisle argues quite convincingly that the Greys weren't as horrible and abusive as they're portrayed). <br /><br />You've got to love historical fiction - deformed incest babies, pansexual nymphomaniacs and dwarf porn ... the genre has it all!Rachelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-31400728586111599832009-10-17T07:20:06.240+01:002009-10-17T07:20:06.240+01:00Steve: Lady D has a post about Robert Baldock: htt...Steve: Lady D has a post about Robert Baldock: http://despenser.blogspot.com/2009/02/robert-baldock-chancellor-1323-1326.html He was deeply unpopular because of his alliance with the Despensers and suffered a miserable death - poor man.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-44560456658295316212009-10-16T20:03:19.617+01:002009-10-16T20:03:19.617+01:00I live in the vain hope that I may one day find a ...I live in the vain hope that I may one day find a diffinitive link to Robert Baldock, Edward's Chancellor, and/or later to Sir Robert Baldock, serjeant-at-law to James II.<br />Have so far got back to late 1500's.<br /><br />(How) Was Baldock maligned?<br /><br />Anyone have any more info or pedigree on Baldock?Steve Baldockhttp://baldockfaggfamily.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-57240881469293884012009-10-15T14:35:00.962+01:002009-10-15T14:35:00.962+01:00Thank you Alianore for your kind words. I don‘t kn...Thank you Alianore for your kind words. I don‘t know much about publishing and publishers and even JK Rowling had a problem finding one but I’m not really in it for the money so maybe when I’ve finished I’ll publish it on the Internet in instalments – might be a good idea given the outrageous cost for hardback books these days, £20 for ‘The White Queen’ oh puh-leeeeeease and the charge for Arlene Okerlund’s forthcoming book on Elizabeth of York is £55/$100! If you like it you can download it – if you don’t you haven’t wasted your money. Or maybe I’ll try my luck with the BBC with a suggestion of a Tudors prequel.<br /><br />You might care to add Elizabeth of York to your list of justifiably injured historical parties who is unfairly maligned in a number of novels as being madly in love with Uncle Ricky. Elizabeth was known as ‘Elizabeth the Good’ and a comparison between her and the late Princess Diana has thrown up not one but twelve uncanny parallels including an outpouring of national grief on her death – you should read Sir Thomas More’s eloquent elegy on her passing – Sir Elton eat your heart out – so how can one even begin to believe that she could also be a manipulating, inconsiderate, impatient, incestuous bitch?<br /><br />And where has this idea come from? Only from an uncorroborated allegation made by Sir George or as I prefer to call him Sir Goebbels Buck. Boy have I dug up some dirt on Buck but what I have to say I’m reserving for my blog ‘ Richard III – Some thoughts on the Great Debate ’.<br /><br />I would, however, like to make a further suggestion as to how we can assist our distressed gentlefolk in the light of one of the comments, a course for authors of historical fact and fiction entitled ‘How to do your basic research – some do’s and don’ts, particularly the don’ts’. Heading the agenda will be the following ‘It is recommended that all participants untwist their nether garments before attending sessions. Head-boiling is optional but advisable. The course tutor reserves the right to administer verbal warnings, whipping, pillorying and as a last resort hdq and to remove those suffering from ill-conceived pre-conceived notions, misplaced tribal loyalty and snarkiness in extremis’<br /><br />And the venue? Where else but the London Dungeon!trish wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292123010612021866noreply@blogger.com