tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post8021566396818414192..comments2024-03-14T05:56:44.390+00:00Comments on Edward II: Edward II's Daughters Eleanor and JoanKathryn Warnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-59371458040458667552016-05-25T09:17:40.784+01:002016-05-25T09:17:40.784+01:00I've never heard of her, but I'm 99.99% su...I've never heard of her, but I'm 99.99% sure she wasn't Eleanor's daughter. I'm afraid there's a tendency on some genealogy websites to invent spurious links to royalty (for example the spectacularly silly claim that Isabella of France had a child called 'William Alfred Knight' with Roger Mortimer, and this seems like a good example.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-22547786186501218682016-05-24T19:01:19.165+01:002016-05-24T19:01:19.165+01:00Hi,
do you know anything about "Margaretha of...Hi,<br />do you know anything about "Margaretha of Geldern-Wassenberg" who was born in 1345 (two years after the death of Rainald II of Geldern (he died in 1343)). She died in 1365.<br />Apparently she's a daughter of Eleanor of Woodstock..., or a grandchild of Edward II King of England... according to my records/my family tree... she's never meantioned or listed anywhere... but she appears as linking piece between me an Eleanor in my family tree...<br /><br />Do you know if Eleanor married again or had more children with another man?<br /><br />thanks<br />ClaireAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-73058748729654426772014-04-23T09:15:04.889+01:002014-04-23T09:15:04.889+01:00Sigh. You're confusing Edward II's queen ...Sigh. You're confusing Edward II's queen Isabella of France (c. 1295-1358), daughter of King Philip IV, with Edward's great-grandmother Isabella of Angouleme (c. 1188-1246), who married King John in 1200 and married secondly Hugh de Lusignan. Isabella of France was betrothed to the future Edward II in 1299 when she was three or four, and never married (or was betrothed to) anyone else.<br /><br />Please don't patronise me on my own site by telling me 'mustn't get too carried away though!', especially when you have the nerve to tell me that Edward II was a 'nasty piece of work', and make the very silly error of confusing a man's wife with his great-grandmother.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-24018123663187169852014-04-23T08:40:17.825+01:002014-04-23T08:40:17.825+01:00Mustn't get TOO carried away, though. Edward I...Mustn't get TOO carried away, though. Edward II was still a fairly nasty piece of work! Isabelle went on to marry the son of her first "Mr Lusignan" and produced another quiver of children. She must have been in her mid-40s when the last was born.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-74534851989801358542008-11-12T06:22:00.000+00:002008-11-12T06:22:00.000+00:00Thanks, Christy. Funny how the sentimental/anachr...Thanks, Christy. Funny how the sentimental/anachronistic attitude to Ed 'removing' Isa's children from her in 1324 is never applied to Isa's actions regarding her younger daughter Joan, who married David Bruce when she was 7 and went to live in Scotland. I don't remember ever seeing anyone criticise Isa for sending a young child to live in another country, away from her mother and siblings...which must surely have been far more unsettling for Joan than going to live at Marlborough with the Monthermers. But then historians are usually relentlessly unsentimental about the realities of medieval life and family, until it comes to condemning Ed II.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-538339086761117532008-11-12T02:55:00.000+00:002008-11-12T02:55:00.000+00:00Farming out children for fostering was expected of...Farming out children for fostering was expected of noble Celtic families. (Sorry, I have no reference to offer; I read it in several books about 8 years ago.) The children would leave their parents around age 6-8 for training in another household or education in a religious foundation. Of course, the exchange was mutual. <BR/><BR/>In medieval Europe, girls would sometimes marry as little children and live in the home of their in-laws until puberty. Isabella married Edward as a girl, and they didn't consummate for some time. King John lusted after Miss Angouleme when she was about 12, already engaged to Mr Lusignan. <BR/><BR/>The whole warm/fuzzy bower with carefree, beloved children had not been invented in the 14th century!Christy K Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05988458745832012138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-28771732075466705632008-11-11T10:42:00.000+00:002008-11-11T10:42:00.000+00:00Thanks, Anerje!Thanks, Anerje!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-7912377857786288022008-11-10T19:55:00.000+00:002008-11-10T19:55:00.000+00:00Great post Alianore. And of course Medieval monar...Great post Alianore. And of course Medieval monarchs gave their children separate households as soon as possible. They couldn't afford to be sentimental - however fond they were of their children, they recognised the serious problem of infant mortality and they saw them as marriage pawns. Edward himself saw very little of his own parents. And of course, there were traditional ways of raising royal children that had to be followed.Anerjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16305237339979790391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-12495489600596365292008-11-10T15:06:00.000+00:002008-11-10T15:06:00.000+00:00Kevin: it's funny you should mention that, as I or...Kevin: it's funny you should mention that, as I originally wrote in the post something like 'Eleanor's husband repudiated her', then deleted it because I don't know the source of the story or how plausible it is. I do remember reading that he told everyone she had a horrible skin disease (or leprosy?), and Eleanor went in front of his court wearing some transparent clothing so they could all see she didn't have in fact have it. That was in Costain though, an entertaining though hardly reliable book!<BR/><BR/>I remember reading that about John, and wondered how on earth his treatment was any different from that of Eleanor of Aquitaine's other children, or any other royal children of the Middle Ages!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-20414703249972356202008-11-10T14:44:00.000+00:002008-11-10T14:44:00.000+00:00Alianore,What do you make of the Wikipedia claim c...Alianore,<BR/><BR/>What do you make of the Wikipedia claim concerning Eleanor's cruel treatment by her husband the Count of Guelders? If the story of the humiliation she endured in order to get her husband to take her back is true, she was certainly a determined woman. The question is: why would she want to go back to the bed of such a tyrant? Protection of her status is the only reason I can think of...<BR/><BR/>Children raised by surrogates was the expected norm in noble and royal households. Some writers have attempted to ascribe the cruelty of King John to the fact that his mother supposedly abandoned him in infancy (John reminded her, it is claimed, of her husband's cheating with "Fair Rosamund"). <BR/><BR/>Orme argues, in his book _Medieval Children_, that perhaps modern children are being ill-served by parents who coddle them too much!Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10517047979325639047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-64825099909596832522008-11-10T06:50:00.000+00:002008-11-10T06:50:00.000+00:00Ceirseach: I'd imagine that John remained at court...Ceirseach: I'd imagine that John remained at court, though I'm not sure. When Ed II fled from London in the autumn of 1326 after Isa and Mortimer's invasion, he left John (aged 10) in nominal charge of the city. What amuses me is the way some historians insist that Eleanor Despenser was Isa's guardian and watched her constantly - yet never bother to explain how she managed to be with Isa day and night yet somehow be in charge of John's household at the same time, somewhere away from Isa (because of course Isa's children were 'tragically removed' from her).<BR/><BR/>Susan: what else can you expect from a man who abandoned a pregnant woman in 1312 and left her to the mercy of the Scots in 1322 and didn't talk to her properly at their coronation? *Rolls eyes*. It's amazing how every single thing Ed ever did has been given a negative spin one way or the other.<BR/><BR/>Lady D: good point! It amazes me that some writers wilfully misunderstand the realities of medieval life when they want to portray Isa as a helpless victim - then ignore her treatment of Despenser's daughters. There are a lot of contradictions in portrayals of Isa - she's a helpless victim of her nasty husband - no, she's a strong powerful woman capable of planning an invasion of England and deposing a king and takes control of her own destiny - no, she's a helpless victim of her nasty lover.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-39780461695624820012008-11-09T21:43:00.000+00:002008-11-09T21:43:00.000+00:00It occurred to me, reading this post, that I've ne...It occurred to me, reading this post, that I've never seen anyone mention what happened to little John when his mother and older brother were in France. I suppose as it became clearer to Edward that Isabella was't going to come back and that he wasnt' going to be able to prevail on his son to stand up to her, it would have been logical for him to try to recall John from wherever he was, or increase the security there, though the symbolic status of John compared to young Edward wasn't very great. But it's odd that no 20th century historian I've read, with our modern ideas of parenting, seems to have botehred to mention him at this point. Or maybe they did and I've just forgotten!Hannah Kilpatrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750010843246514032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-39967226375684415162008-11-09T20:28:00.000+00:002008-11-09T20:28:00.000+00:00Great post! Amazing also how the detail of the rai...Great post! Amazing also how the detail of the rain in the Tower has been twisted into Edward's forcing poor pitiful Isabella to give birth in a leaky room.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19545049.post-48017049914464882412008-11-09T18:02:00.000+00:002008-11-09T18:02:00.000+00:00A really interesting post Alianore! I love the gre...A really interesting post Alianore! I love the great detail you go into. Also good to see the refutation of the common myth of Isabella's children being 'stolen' from her. After all, it's not like they were forced to take the veil (the daughters, that is!) like Despenser's daughters were some years later. Children of royalty and the nobility were almost always given their own households at some point.<BR/><BR/>By the way - I sooooo love the Castile/England love-in!Jules Frusherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08207281934232383811noreply@blogger.com